Grand Theft Auto

[Saturnine Tenshi]

You should hear some of the stories I've heard from employees of Rockstar Vancouver.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Saturnine Tenshi

[SomTervo]

Maybe it was Vancouver I was thinking of.

 

Horrible, though. Utterly inexcusable. And you've probably heard a lot more than I have.

[Mister Jack]

What in God's name is happening with GTA recently? The first version of GTA V came out without any real fuss or controversy, but then when they add a first person mode everyone gets pissed again? Not only that, but social justice retards are trying (and succeeding!) to get the game pulled from various store outlets because of the prostitutes. Didn't we all agree this shit was stupid back when Jack Thompson was doing it? Why is it suddenly a good thing? I mean what the fuck?

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Horseshoe theory.

[Mal]

My impression was that the first person was received pretty well. It is just something extra and an added incentive to get the current gen version. I personally can't wait to try the game because so far, even though unreliable, the PC port seems to be shaping up pretty well.

 

Also, Jack, don't you realize games are meant for kids, not adults? Why are games made for adults!? /s

God damn, that view got to die in a fire. It's wrong on a fundamental level and it is old as shit. Besides, we're talking about GTA here. The in-game universe is meant to be ridiculous. Like, shit, the world is to ours like how South Park's world is to ours. It exaggerates things, especially the bad things, in our world.

[Mister Jack]

Oh the first person mode was received just fine by the GTA fans.  It's the critics who take issue with it because the first person mode suddenly turns the game into a murder simulator.  Boy, where have we heard that before?

 

By the way, it's just the prostitutes that these people are getting their panties in a knot about, prostitutes whom you are never once required by the game to kill in the first place.  And if you're going to get mad about that, you might as well get mad about killing homeless people or minorities too because ultimately the game treats all the NPCs the same way.  They're just people walking around and you can choose to ignore them or murderdeathkill them.

[TheMightyEthan]

Why is it suddenly a good thing?

It's not? Literally everything I've seen about this agrees it's bad (other than the people doing it, but the same thing could be said back when Jack Thompson was doing it).

[deanb]

I've being watching housemate play it, seems fun. Will be waiting on PC version though.

 

Also on topic Polyong put out an article about Target pulling it from their stores (Which they're in the right to do so, though I'm skeptical on why they'd feel the need to put out a press release about not selling a product, especially if it's been out for over a year, and a few weeks into the launch of the new version so they'll have made 90% of their sales on it anyway).

But yeah, Polygon article. Calls GTA:

 

Thus, there's a large amount of hostility toward American culture, even as most Australians frequently consume it. While we have the same prejudice against games as mindless entertainment that exists in the states, this is combined with the belief that American cultural artifacts are particularly inane and violent.

 

There is, at least on the Australian left, widespread worry that the saturation of American movies, music, TV, games, art, podcasts and ads has influenced Australian values, politics and perceptions of the world.

 

Games aren't exempt from that as they often present American values like individualism, pragmatism, meritocracy and consumerism over traditional Australian values like mateship, larrikinism, a fair go and egalitarianism. Games like Grand Theft Auto aren't just seen as games; they're seen as American games, out of touch with Australian values — including Australian attitudes toward sex work.

 

America:

 

It's a Scottish game that takes the piss out of America. Well, the Pißwasser. How'd you end up writing for a games blog and not knowing one of the most financially successful studios is Scottish?

[Mister Jack]

 

Why is it suddenly a good thing?

It's not? Literally everything I've seen about this agrees it's bad (other than the people doing it, but the same thing could be said back when Jack Thompson was doing it).

 

 

Maybe we're just hearing from different people because I've seen a bunch of outlets and personalities who were vehemently anti-Thompson back in the day making excuses for the recall.  Then again, I'm drifting into Kotaku and Polygon territory now and those sites have been shit for years.

[TheMightyEthan]

Target is absolutely within their right not to stock it, just as I am absolutely within my right to say it's a shitty decision that makes them shitty people. Legal authority to do a thing is not a defense from criticism for doing it.

[TheMightyEthan]

 

 

Why is it suddenly a good thing?

It's not? Literally everything I've seen about this agrees it's bad (other than the people doing it, but the same thing could be said back when Jack Thompson was doing it).

Maybe we're just hearing from different people because I've seen a bunch of outlets and personalities who were vehemently anti-Thompson back in the day making excuses for the recall. Then again, I'm drifting into Kotaku and Polygon territory now and those sites have been shit for years.

I don't agree with the petition or the results, but I don't think it's as bad as what Jack Thompson was doing. Jacky boy was trying to get the government to forcibly censor all games in the country, which is way more draconian and sweeping in scope than merely trying to convince retailers not to sell them.

[Mister Jack]

I'd say depending on who you ask the goals are one and the same, maybe not in relation to the Target thing on its own but in the bigger picture, where all of a sudden Rockstar is being taken to task for their "problematic" depictions of certain demographics.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/10/7364823/gta-5s-vicious-misogyny-ought-to-be-addressed-not-ignored

 

They might not want to censor Rockstar legally, but they definitely want Rockstar to censor themselves, and I say fuck that.  Grand Theft Auto can (and should) be as irreverent, shocking, and yes, even as offensive as it wants to be, and I completely reject the notion that "if you don't like it, don't buy it" isn't a legitimate standpoint.  I think by now people on here have probably figured out that I despise social justice warriors with the kind of fire that can cause solar systems to go supernova, but I would never try to stop them from making a game based around their agenda or tell them what they could or couldn't put in said game.

 

I would, however, choose not to buy it.

[TheMightyEthan]

But it's perfectly fair to say "I think this thing you're making is bad, and that you should choose not to make it" as long as you don't actually try to prevent them from doing so. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Hear, hear.

[Thursday Next]

But it's perfectly fair to say "I think this thing you're making is bad, and that you should choose not to make it" as long as you don't actually try to prevent them from doing so. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

 

I'd say it's also fair to lobby people to agree with you and to use that power to apply financial or other pressure to get your way. Provided that people always have a choice to go against that and continue to stock it and deal with the consequences.

 

Basically, I don't have an issue with anything that happened re: sex workers, Target and KMart, and GTA.

 

If I were in charge of KMart and Target, I would have looked at the size of the petition, the demographics, the potential for lost sales and the current level of GTA sales and made a decision based on the numbers. I assume they did the same and decided the cost of dumping GTA was worth the goodwill of the petitioners.

 

If there were no numbers involved and it was just a moral stand point, I'm not sure if I would have gone on selling something that upset a lot of people, or if I would make a stand for free speech. As someone who finds GTA a bit stagnant and puerile, I would probably junk it.

[SomTervo]

 

As someone who finds GTA a bit stagnant and puerile, I would probably junk it.

 

Totes agree with your post on the whole, but care to qualify "stagnant and puerile"?

 

"Stagnant" I could get behind in terms of gameplay, but artistically GTA V is vibrantly written and the gameworld is phenomenal. Walking around in FPS, especially in the rundown/graffiti-covered parts of town is literally like walking through a work of visual art. Stylistically, it's better than it's ever been and a towering behemoth in the world of videogaming.

 

"Puerile", though? It's a perfectly observed pastiche of America - playing up the exaggeration which the place embodies. The aspects of opulence and ignorance are strung into the game's DNA similarly to a spoof movie. It's like calling Gulliver's Travels puerile because it uses the style and medium of a fantasy tale to undermine real political issues of the time. Ie it's like your commenting on style/genre while ignoring the substance/point. GTA is largely a mature work of fiction- its source material is just inane and insane.

 

I may have taken what you said way too far, but it's a good topic for discussion anyway.

Edited December 16, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[Thursday Next]

I do mean stagnant in terms of gameplay. It's done little that compels me to play. I feel the same about the AC series, both are (for me) suffering from franchise fatigue and could do with being shelved for a while until there are some fresh ideas. Also, the characters feel like rehashes of Tommy and CJ. It just doesn't *feel* new and there's not really a particular thing I can put my finger on that explains it.

 

As for Puerile, it's rehashing the same jokes, peados are perverts, governments are corrupt, blah blah blah, but it doesn't actually say anything new about them. It's the difference between someone in the pub going "Hah! The taxman is stealing my money, he should wear a mask and carry a swag bag." or actually making humorous commenting on a government official claiming expenses to maintain the duck house in his pond, when his constituents are homeless. Both are technically political satire, one deals with a broad, almost monomyth type thing that the "taxman" is a boogey man out to take your hard earned cash. It's lazy and easy to do because it never changes. It's also deeply flawed in its reasoning as taxes pay for stuff. The other relates to a particular individual, but also speaks to the general issue of politicians getting more than their fair share.

 

Not to mention all the crap like internet cafes called "tw@" which is about as infantile as it gets.

[TheMightyEthan]

@TN's original comment:  The Target/K-Mart thing is kind of in a middle ground for me; I find it distasteful, but it's obviously not as bad as if they were trying to get it actually banned by the government.  If it were any random product I would agree with you, but the fact that it's a creative work makes it more troubling to me.

 

That said I don't feel all that strongly about it.  It's more of a "huh, that's dumb of them" type reaction.

[Thursday Next]

@TN's original comment:  The Target/K-Mart thing is kind of in a middle ground for me; I find it distasteful, but it's obviously not as bad as if they were trying to get it actually banned by the government.  If it were any random product I would agree with you, but the fact that it's a creative work makes it more troubling to me.

 

That said I don't feel all that strongly about it.  It's more of a "huh, that's dumb of them" type reaction.

 

I suppose that's where I diverge from your opinion. I totally agree that lobbying the government to ban it encroaches on artistic freedoms and is a BadThing™. However, once it is in a shop it becomes any random product and I'm totally in favour of market forces determining the sale of products.

 

Games (perhaps due to the nature of my work) are sort of quantum art/product entities to me.

[SomTervo]

I do mean stagnant in terms of gameplay... &c

 

As for Puerile, it's rehashing the same jokes, peados are perverts, governments are corrupt, blah blah blah, but it doesn't actually say anything new about them. It's the difference between someone in the pub going "Hah! The taxman is stealing my money, he should wear a mask and carry a swag bag." or actually making humorous commenting on a government official claiming expenses to maintain the duck house in his pond, when his constituents are homeless.

 

&c

 

I'm totally with you on the gameplay. I had major GTA fatigue with GTAIV. But I found GTA V's gameworld so compelling, and the blend of gameplay/cinema so spot-on that I really enjoyed it. That is something AC has never achieved, though Unity has been trying, what with the cutscene-into-gameplay transitions. (PS Unity is the best AC game yet I'd say, give it a try if you can find it on the cheap. Rights 6/10 huge faults I have with the series, though it intrudes 2-3 minor faults simultaneously.)

 

I get the gist of what you're saying (re puerile), but imho GTA V transcends this quite often. Not all the time- a lot of the characters/pastiche's are very well-trodden now - but often enough. (This doesn't necessarily go for any of the earlier games.) GTA V travels into serious 'shades of grey' territory with many of its characters. Basically any scene with Trevor does this. He's a genius like the series has never seen (like videogame stories have never seen tbh), but also a psychopath with literally no inhibitions. He often drops brilliantly written insight which does delve deeper than the surface, and he calls it out other generic GTA characters (like you mentioned, eg G-men, entrepeneurs without morals, etc) on their superficialities and idiosyncrasies.

 

A lot of the smaller jokes are juvenile as heck, but I laugh. There's a place for humour like that, and GTA puts it in the right place. (Opinions, opinions, opinions.)

 

Edit: Rereading your last example there (bold)... I'm fairly certain there are a lot of examples like that in GTA. V at least. Lots of well-pointed irony and situations which are intelligently satirical. Eg Simeon calling his customers 'racist' to guilt them into buying cars, whilst he's exploiting Franklin and Lamar's race for cheap labour, and to convince people he's ethically and morally sound.

Edited December 16, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[Thursday Next]

Maybe (probably) you are right, I've only had limited interaction with GTA V on friends' copies so not got in to the detail, and I tend to think that you're pretty spot on when you comment on stuff I have played more thoroughly.

 

At this point, I've got more games than I can play, and GTA is traditionally too much of a time sink for me to jump on especially since when I've tried it, it's failed to grab me.

 

It's not played straight like Watchdogs (surveillance state, etc etc etc), but not ott and humorous enough to be Vice City (where I think the series peaked). So it just kind of sits in a messy middle ground.

 

For an anglo-centric illustration, it's like going to see Stewart Lee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOb2KQHr7V0 share the stage with Roy Chubby Brown

have an audience, but there isn't much room for overlap.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

 

 

Vice City (where I think the series peaked)

Yeah!

[SomTervo]

I feel you - and I should have opened my gambit by asking how much you'd played GTA V!

 

When you get an opportunity, I thoroughly recommend it. Moreso than any of the other GTA games. I've got too many games, too, if I hadn't played it I'd be leaving this for a year at least.

 

GTA V is close - close - to being something as good as The Sopranos, but playable. And you wouldn't get that effect from cursory sessions at a friend's place - you'd get this if you played the story mode for 4-5 hours. My girlfriend had the same opinion as you, re depth of writing, until I (gently) coerced her into properly playing a few of the missions in sequence, and she very quickly saw how clever and well written the thing is. She loves it now, and she used to be a full-blown GTA-basher. (She's an ITV journalist so knows a thing or two about writing/satire, too.)

 

In short: there's a reason Edge magazine gave it a 10/10. (Though I suppose that doesn't mean as much as it used to.)

 

I think the adjective puerile fits with the humour and writing in the ambient game world - as this has to be surface-value by definition, so you can briefly guffaw as you drive past a crude billboard at 80Mph. The real meat of the thing is in the story/campaign missions, which are a solid 15-20 hours of gameplay and writing, with lots of multiple dialogues and clever contextual writing you can miss.

 

Edit: The thought of Stew Lee and Chubby Brown on a stage together makes me boke

 

Two things which should never be within a hundred miles of each other. Never

Edited December 16, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[TheMightyEthan]

Vice City (where I think the series peaked).

Glory hallelujah amen!

[SomTervo]

 

Vice City (where I think the series peaked).

Glory hallelujah amen!

No just no!

 

III or San An or V. Never VC or IV