Grand Theft Auto

[SomTervo]

The Bonnie and Clyde thing is a good point. But in reality females are only ever in crime in support roles, as sexist as that is. Just like B+C. She didn't, couldn't strong-arm folks to any big extent. He did that part.

 

While it would have been great, fantastic, interesting to have one of the three player character's a female, in real life she would never get in on the violent, fast action which is what GTA has always been about. Or at least, if she did, it would be destined to failure/ death. Especially with R*'s contemporary focus on reality.

 

From R*'s perspective, all three of the protags have to be, relatively, equally strong/ fast/ capable in a physical sense. They just have preferences/ temperaments which are different and lead to different minigames and dialogue. In terms of gameplay, they all have to be able to do the same thing to the same degree, when the player is playing them. In reality, a female protag wouldn't be able to keep up. She wouldn't be able be a physical equal with three fit, strong men.

 

It's just a classic contention between reality of simulation and reality of story. You can't have the best of both worlds, yet at least. A female protag would have to be a lot weaker or less capable in some way, to fit with reality, and seeing as it's an action game, that can't be done with. It would ruin the even balance between the three protags. It's a shitty, biologically biased thing, but for what R* are doing it's kinda justified.

Edited November 10, 2012 by kenshi_ryden

[Waldorf and Statler]

I don't even know if I want to continue this argument. We're just gonna go in circles with Dean extending the argument longer than it needs to be like hetends to do haha when we all know Rockstar isn't accountable for shit in this situation and 90% of the people playing the game won't give a shit.

[deanb]

Well a quick google search brings up a bunch of female criminals. of which only a few are accomplices, so yeah it is pretty sexist I guess.

 

How would a video game female not be on-par with a video game male? Someone will have to fill me in on this spot, but I've a feeling femsheep doesn't go "owee" after trying to melee a Brute. It's a video game, the male protagonists of GTA (including the "closer to reality" GTAIV) already survive being catapulted several dozen yards out of a car. Talking of cars, I'm pretty sure they can drive just as well, and steal just as well and shoot guns just as well. The only limitations put upon a female character would be those purposefully put in by Rockstar.

 

@W&S: No one is bending your arm behind oyur back keeping you in this "argument".

[SomTervo]

Eh. The main issue is the physical fact that females aren't as strong as males, or as biologically geared towards conflict. This is a fact. It's part of human biology. Females, at peak, aren't as strong as males. Sure, it's a sexist thing. But it's totally accounted for. Even feminists totally acknowledge it- a core argument of feminism is that society should build on top of this basic inequality to create equality.

 

So if in a game like GTA, you press B or O or something to punch a guy, and two of your three characters are tip-top-shape males, the female character's punches just aren't going to be as strong or damaging as the punch of one of the male characters. In a game which is going for the same core gameplay mechanics for all three characters, this would ruin the balance.

 

R* are trying to keep things both realistic and consistent across the characters we're playing. With this in mind, a fem character wouldn't be biologically equal to a male character, from a gameplay standpoint. And they have to be here. If R* weren't going for consistency, just realism it wouldn't be an issue- but they are. In order to maintain the gameplay standard.

 

You're saying why wouldn't a video game female be as strong as a video game male, the issue is that R* aren't seeing them as 'video game' males or females, but real life males or females. They don't want to warp the rules of reality (as much as they already do it with the action, but that's relegated to action only) to make a female character equal, so they would logically keep it to male protags.

 

So I mean, obviously it's a decision made by R*, what isn't to do with the game, but it's a decision made to try to parallel the realism of the characters in the world with the gameplay which the player is in control of. Which has to be completely standardised. Again, the strongest a man can be is far stronger than the strongest a woman can be, and presumably in GTAV we'll be playing pretty damn strong guys. R* need to make every PC just as strong to maintain the gameplay continuity. ('Strength' is an arbitrary example to pick on, but the same principle will apply to every physical way that the male characters behave, not just strength obviously. There are different paramaters for everything between men and women. And R* having to account for every one of those differences for one protag? Not gonna happen.)

 

Sure, there will be female solo criminals IRL- but how many of the top brass criminals, or most savage aggressive offenders, will be female? A tiny, tiny percentage in comparison to men. The standard is male. It's a male dominated industry, though you obviously will get females who do it.

 

It's like complaining that none of the big advertising honcho characters in Mad Men are females. The creators wanted to capture authenticity which existed in that industry at that time- so it is mainly men (but there are a couple of females. The percentage is still heavily weighted to men in that period.)

 

My whole two lines of argument here are arbitrary anyway. There are tons of other reasons R* might choose to do it. Different banter between the protags? The idea for an overall story arc which, when it came to it, wouldn't fit with a female character? Fuck knows man. There are tons of possible reasons they did it this way. Sure, it's a missed opportunity, but just as much as it's a missed opportunity they don't have a transgendered character. It's their choice, and I'm sure they'll do fucking great things with it anyway.

 

@Waldy: my attitude in these situations is 'just keep arguing until a compromise is met or the other person lets up'. Never seems to work with you, Dean, haha!

Edited November 11, 2012 by kenshi_ryden

[Waldorf and Statler]

It doesn't work because certain people just argue and extend arguments for the sake of arguing. Like with the Assassins Creed 3 topic.

[deanb]

I understand that in the real non-computed world if you put a man and a woman in a ring and had them beat the shit out of each other, then there's a likely chance that the man would win. But this is GTAV, a video game, where the laws of our world do not apply (And on top of that it's not MMA V, it's GTAV, a game where you spend most of the time stealing & driving cars, and firing guns, which is a pretty even playing field between men and women.) And you're not a top line Olympian either, don't forget in GTAIV (which is part of the "realistic GTA") you play a slightly tubby not-physical peak dude.

 

As far as realism goes, it just simply doesn't matter. Or there would be a lot more changes to the GTA series than not having any female PCs. Thus the only issue that crops up is if it's "hollywood real", is it a "real" that we as gamers will accept. And given the fact I was fine with the idea of Lori beating the shit out of Quaid despite him being a male agent

though my brain did stop and go "hey up, what's going on here" when Quaid started getting beaten by the chancellor, who was not a top agent, nor as youthful

, I'm pretty sure gamers won't mind it if the female PC could run, shoot and punch on par with the other male PCs. I've already mentioned about Femshep, a female PC in an action game that not only do people not have no issue with her being perfectly on par with her male equivalent, but in fact idolize her.

 

Their writing ability is about the only major thing it would come down to, but given they managed to hamfist a "proper" relationship into a game where you can ...oh I guess there's one issue: female hookers. Anywho..grab random hookers off a street and also date many other women throughout the game, I'm sure writing a GTA-level storyline for a female character wouldn't/shouldn't prove too hard.

 

@W&S: You already said you were going to leave this discussion.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, GTA games may be striving for realism in terms of situations, but Niko Bellic was a fucking one man army and you can't say that the gameplay is realistic in the slightest, so saying "the woman would have to be weaker to be realistic" is just a ridiculous argument.

 

Besides, the whole "women are slower/weaker than men" thing works when you're talking about averages, but not individuals. Sure, I'm stronger than most women and could beat the crap out of them in a fight, but there are certainly many out there that I could beat the crap out of me. Ergo you could have a woman be just as capable as the men, and if you need to explain it at all (which I don't think you do) the explanation is "she's unusually strong for a woman". It wouldn't be some gaping plot hole.

[Hot Heart]

It's a missed opportunity, sure. The 'Hollywood real' is a valid point in another regard though, because that's exactly what drives the Houser brothers.

 

They just pick bits from films here and there. They're not exactly being progressive as much as derivative (when it comes to story). I'd say they borrow a lot from Mann, Tarantino and Scorsese. Heat? All male. Reservoir Dogs? Pulp Fiction (bar the one female sidekick)? All male. Goodfellas? Once Upon A Time In America? The Departed (and the original)? All male.

 

While they try and ground the narrative, they are not writing true crime or even The Wire. They are inspired by and following the beats of earlier films.

 

On the other hand, it does sound like they are exploring some different areas. For all we know, it could be a takedown of the masculine approach to matters; they are all violent criminals unable to find happiness regardless of wealth or whatever. Those deeper sorts of ideas are present in the films that Rockstar mimics but haven't always translated well into or remained consistent with the games. It's probably expecting a bit much, but Red Dead Redemption was a step in the right direction after GTAIV took a few shots at some.

[SomTervo]

'But this is GTAV, a video game, where the laws of our world do not apply'

 

But R* are trying to make those laws apply! In the story/ world at least; maybe not gameplay That's the whole point. It's a decision to do so, but a jusified decision. I said this in my last post. R* have explicitly said the GTA's of this generation are about trying to capture real people dynamics and situations, despite the gameplay ridiculousness. It's about the story and gameplay matching!

 

Preferably, our player characters will be very strong individuals, capable of beating most people in a mano y mano. This is a necessity in a game where we need to do all the things they want us to. So R* make it so. PC's with the peak of strength- which would be men. Now they want three protagonists. They make it so also. But introducing a female character, even one at peak strength, wouldn't be as strong as the three male protags.

 

But yeah. Seriously. I don't even disagree with your guys. Just love a bit o' the old cut 'n' thrust. And I think it's obvious that R* had their reasons for making it three dudes, and that more standardised/ equal/ level playing field could have been one of those reasons.

[deanb]

But the storylines are still fairly ridiculous from a real world point anyway. You're stealing fancy cars for a guy who injects himself with shark testosterone. You're involved with a multitude of gangs who don't seem to care you're working for rival gangs (or even the gov't, and they not only don't care you work for other gangs but that's why they want you). Their storylines are at most "Hollywood real", and female car thief/robber/assassin would work within that. And if R* feel they can't work with that kind of material then it only looks bad on them (especially since folks suck their cock for RDR).

The whole strength issue is only one of gameplay, not story. And while I feel these guys will be strong enough, I severely doubt they'll be "very strong". That would be something that would be weird. Note how Brucie is painted as someone being a bit odd in the last game. Most of the NPCs (and the PC) are of average fitness. No Mr Universes. And that is realistic (enough. It's worth noting here's no one obese in GTA land).

Anyway if you really wanted to unify the gameplay and story have her as an undercover cop or something, a physical fit and properly trained cop would explain a lot of things from being a good fist fighter to being a skilled shooter and high speed car driver. But it would probably be the first time there's ever been a story element added to explain the many quirks of what the PC can do. (beyond the ability to call up a taxi on the cheap)

 

Also I don't feel their reasoning are obvious, but I'd be interested in hearing them.

[SomTervo]

It's generally true, it wouldn't make that much of a difference if they really wanted to make it so. But obviously it wouldn't just be physical strength, as I said, but lots of parameters like stamina, temperament, bodily functions which women have that men don't, yadda yadda. Basically, having three dudes removes having to think about any of that, or even thinking about there's an imbalance in the first place.

 

I suppose that's my main point: R* are pushing the boat out on this one, structually and narratively. They're going into uncharted territory, for them at least. So just having three guys removes the issue of having to worry about any of this. They wouldn't have to worry about the unliklihood of females doing stuff like this with men in the same capacity, wouldn't have to worry about any physical differences between them, wouldn't have to worry about any narrative differences in terms of writing etc. It's totally something R* could do in the future, it'd be a great thing. But I'm personally totally happy with three guys who are different types anyway. And R* are keeping in their safe zone in at least some way. We know they can write male protags, and we know they can design gameplay for male protags. All should be good.

[TheMightyEthan]

I played as a girl in Saints Row: The Third, and you know what seemed weird about it? Absolutely nothing.

 

Granted, Saints Row is not anywhere close to realistic in any way, but you keep talking about physical differences between men and women that would make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE in the gameplay. They could have had a woman protagonist that was just a different character model but that otherwise played exactly the same as the men and it would not have been weird at all. The idea that it would be unworkable is frankly quite sexist.

 

If they want to say "we didn't want to have a woman for creative reasons" then that's fine and that's their prerogative, but there's no objective reason why they shouldn't have a woman.

[Hot Heart]

Disappointingly brief interview with one of the Housers, though there are some interesting comments. The thing about being able to play as the protagonist and antagonist sounds interesting...

 

And I love this...

 

I suppose what we’ve borrowed from cinema is cinematography. We haven’t borrowed a lot structurally. We’ve borrowed from TV structurally, we’ve borrowed from long-form novels structurally. Even a short game like Max Payne is 10, 12 hours long. It’s several action movies back to back, in terms of how the story works.

 

Or, you know, doesn't work. Followed by...

 

I haven’t seen “Treme.” I never even saw “The Wire.” One of my weird disciplines is that I don’t really watch a lot of those shows, if they relate to what we do. I only watched a tiny bit of “The Sopranos.” No “Boardwalk Empire.” No “Breaking Bad.” Wherever it’s too close to crime, gangster, underbelly fiction, and it’s supercontemporary, I decided, for professional reasons, I have to avoid it.

 

Explains a lot.

[Waldorf and Statler]

lol I remember seeing a Robot Chicken episode recently about stuck-up people needing to mention they have seen the Wire like all of a sudden it makes them superior.

 

 

Either ways have you guys seen Breaking Bad? Fantastic show.

[Thursday Next]

Cinematography? What they borrowed from cinema was the story for Vice City. This whole "not watching stuff" discipline is obviously a relatively recent thing, either that or the Housers spontaneously came up with a story that was pretty much exactly Scarface (+some Carlito's Way iirc) without any reference material whatsoever.

 

Unless of course it's just TV that he is distancing himself from, in which case, that's an odd distinction to make imo, especially given the Miami Vice feeling of Vice City.

 

Not criticising for doing satire, or parody or taking inspiration from films / TV by the way. Just odd that Houser of all people would suggest that he doesn't.

[Hot Heart]

Heh, I don't think watching The Wire makes you superior, but avoiding it, along with many other great contemporary shows, makes you look incredibly ignorant. If they're emulating or channelling the genre (or satirising American media culture), they'd do best to try and keep up with what everyone else is doing.

 

Besides, how do you borrow from TV structurally by assembling action films back to back?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Heh, I don't think watching The Wire makes you superior, but avoiding it, along with many other great contemporary shows, makes you look incredibly ignorant. If they're emulating or channelling the genre (or satirising American media culture), they'd do best to try and keep up with what everyone else is doing.

 

Besides, how do you borrow from TV structurally by assembling action films back to back?

 

You're generalizing here. The satire isn't in the core storyline but in the world itself. Houser, who's writing the main storyline, doesn't want to do things like what is already being done. He wants things to be unique and fresh rather than borrowing what is going in with crime-related shows over the past 5-10 years. The satire outside of that will be coming from more than just him and that's only one tiny thing to worry about with satirizing American media.

[Hot Heart]

I'm generalising, sure, but it doesn't fill me with much confidence if, yet again, they can't create a consistent or coherent story. I don't see how they can create compelling characters or narrative inside a patchwork of empty cultural references. A minor example, GTAIV had 'herpderp space marines' and 'oh, tentacle porn anime' on its TV station when those things were already outdated.

 

And they're not creating anything unique or fresh because they're copying films from yesteryear without any of the substance behind it.

 

Admittedly, I'm being a bit harsh, and we don't know enough about the game yet but, as one of the main creative people, he sounds disingenuous or just stupid.

[TheMightyEthan]

Since when are space marines outdated?

 

 

[SomTervo]

The Housers would lose nothing, nothing from watching shows like that. It can only give them more inspiration. It's not like it would kill their creativity or ruin their originality. That attitude is pretty reductive. But I suppose, yeah, they're satirizing American culture, which isn't just in niche shows like that, it's a lot more pervasive and all encompassing, so in that sense it isn't necessary. But to avoid shows like that is a bit of an empty statement.

 

I can imagine though that if they watched The Wire or The Sopranos or something, they could really see the utmost heights of artistic and thematic achievement in storytelling like this. It might make the Houser's realise how much better they could do, how the sky really is the limit. GTA's stories are always pretty basic.

 

 

I played as a girl in Saints Row: The Third, and you know what seemed weird about it? Absolutely nothing.

 

Granted, Saints Row is not anywhere close to realistic in any way, but you keep talking about physical differences between men and women that would make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE in the gameplay. They could have had a woman protagonist that was just a different character model but that otherwise played exactly the same as the men and it would not have been weird at all. The idea that it would be unworkable is frankly quite sexist.

 

If they want to say "we didn't want to have a woman for creative reasons" then that's fine and that's their prerogative, but there's no objective reason why they shouldn't have a woman.

 

 

The point is that biology is sexist! As I said, that's a core tenet of feminism. That biological bias, which is heavily pro-male, has to be overcome by society. But yeah, the whole argument I'm putting forth is totally nitpicky, I'm just taking it to an extreme to provide some argumentation. A potential reason as to how it would affect gameplay.

 

I think the creative reasons behind the decision are probably their primary reasons, and obviously their own, and will be totally justified; I'm just speculating on how, in an effort to keep gameplay totally balanced, three male protags might remove some possible contentions.

Edited November 13, 2012 by kenshi_ryden

[Waldorf and Statler]

new trailer

 

 

Looks fucking awesome. It's like the Sopranos. Women have realistic supporting roles in a modern society. WHO KNEW.

[TheMightyEthan]

That looks awesome. I really really hope there's a good PC version that launches at the same time as the console versions, but I fear that hope is in vain.

[Hot Heart]

Wow, that looks nice! The action seems pretty cool. And I love the little shout at 1:30 as he leaps out of the car...out of the plane.

[Waldorf and Statler]

For the 2 seconds I saw the wife and daughter I was reminded of Carmela and Meadow way too much

[excel_excel]

Man, Rockstar know how to put together a trailer. Holy crap there looks to be some exciting sequences there.