"Vaping"

[FredEffinChopin]

With the exception of a small handful of occasions, I've been cigarette-free for over two years now, and I mainly have e-cigs/vaporizers to thank for it. Having had such a positive experience with them, and the product having become as popular as it has (and frankly a considerable economic force), I thought there might be room on this forum for discussion about them. Maybe someone here is curious about them and would like some recommendations or has questions, or just wants to tell me that myself and people like me look like complete douches (I agree). Maybe someone can recommend some stuff to me. Whatever it is, here is a thread for it. 

 

When I very first began experimenting it was with disposables, just to test the waters. I went with The NJoy Kings. If not for the fact that they're so damned expensive, I probably would have stayed on those permanently. Most e-cigs, even disposable ones, can't escape the feel of hardware when compared to a cigarette, as they have metal and plastic parts everywhere. The "filter" portion of an NJoy King though, has a very soft plastic than one can sort of bite on, the way one might hold a cigarette in one's mouth. Not only does the soft tip make it great for that, but the extremely light form factor as well. While I've moved on to "juices" with better flavors, greater content control, better vapor production, and more transparency in regards to production, nothing has ever come close to being as comfortable as the Kings were for me as an ex-smoker.

 

When I first invested in actual hardware to use regularly, I went with what's called the "cig-a-like" form factor, which is exactly what it sounds like. 

 

 

Those are a bunch of automatic (as opposed to manual) cig-a-like "Volt" batteries by SmokelessImage, which is the company whose hardware I've been using until very recently. These batteries screw onto what is called a "cartomizer", which is a combination of a cartridge and an atomizer, and resembles the filter portion of a cigarette when attached to a battery. Earlier e-cigs were all three-pieces (many still are, especially more expensive ones), consisting of an atomizer, a battery, and a tank/cartridge. The two-piece setup is most common for cig-a-likes nowadays though, and it's where most people begin their experimentation. 

 

Like many (probably most) people who stick with vaping, I eventually graduated to a bigger battery, the battery itself being only part of the reason. They are often colloquially called "Ego batteries", but it's a bit like the way the name Pampers is used interchangeably with the word diapers. The eGo is a specific line of batteries by Joyetech that became very popular. There are many companies that make many larger batteries. While larger batteries provide much longer life than cig-a-likes do, they are also more suited to larger tanks, which is one of the reasons they're desirable. 

 

These present a couple of benefits. The amount of juice they can hold is usually substantially greater than with a cartomizer, even with smaller tanks. You can also pretty clearly see when they're low, as opposed to cartomizers, which contain cotton on the inside that soaks up the juice, so that even if they were transparent, it would be difficult to know when they're low until they start tasting funny. These also seem to produce more vapor than their cotton-filled counterparts for whatever reason, and can sometimes produce more "throat hit" that many desire. There are plenty of people on youtube with cute names and dramatic intro music that get really into the science behind the products, and who are happily answering the "why"s of this as we speak (including a very strong modding community). All I can say is that it's true, I seem to get more substantial vapor production from the same juice in a tank vs. a cartomizer. Also, some of the larger batteries let users switch voltages, which is helpful for anyone who likes to experiment with lots of different juices, as they come in various consistencies. 

 

I'll wrap this up, as I'm not sure there is enough interest to justify what I've already put in here, let alone any information beyond it. Let's see if this goes anywhere before I do any more yapping. 

[deanb]

One of my work colleauges is quite heavy into vaping. Even more so now he works from home and can vape all day without complaint. And since he's also a web developer he's put together this:

http://dot1ml.com/

 

Mixes up his own stuff, was always fun when he was in. A bit like the scene from Willy Wonka when he started up with his vaping.

[Mr. GOH!]

Vaping is better than smoking, health-wise, but still not as healthy as not vaping. I'm glad I quit cigarettes cold turkey almost exactly five years ago. 

 

With a trip to Colorado coming up for me, I'm actually more interested in info about vaping marijuana since I feel that smoking something will make me crave cigarettes again.

[TheRevanchist]

[TheMightyEthan]

With a trip to Colorado coming up for me, I'm actually more interested in info about vaping marijuana since I feel that smoking something will make me crave cigarettes again.

That's a really interesting idea that hasn't occurred to me...

[Mr. GOH!]

Colorado weed tourism is a growing thing.

 

I'm interested in comparing it with Amsterdam, which I visited again very recently on my honeymoon. I think Colorado may win out, since Amsterdam's roving groups of young British drug tourists, or, as we called them, The Lads (and The Ladettes), were really terrible and annoying. 

 

Vaping was kinda big in Europe, especially France.  I guess it's a quickly-growing market everywhere.

[TheMightyEthan]

I meant vaping weed. Going to Colorado for pot has occurred to me.

[Strangelove]

God, those giant sausage sized ones look stupid as fuck. I cant get over how stupid they look.

 

Anywho, I was vaping back in 2011 or so. I used the cigarette shaped one. It was ok. Dropped it after about 4 or 5 months. It just wasnt the same. I was a big fan of vanilla flavored cigarettes every once in a while before they got banned here, so vaping was the closest thing to it, but a real cigarette was way better than those. So I went back to cigarettes. 

Only reason i dont smoke anymore is because Im broke as fuck.

 

I wont delve too much into it, but I imight be one of the few who doesnt feel shame in smoking or wants to quit. It sucks when I have to run, but all the other hazards I dont really mind. Aging badly and cancer...eh. Im not very good looking now and I dont really want to be 100 years old. 

[deanb]

Are you meaning vanilla as like vanilla pods, or vanilla as in "plain"?

[TheMightyEthan]

Vanilla as in the flavor of vanilla.  Like vanilla extract.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Is vaping meant to be something that breaks the habit of smoking, or something that replaces it?

[TheMightyEthan]

Either, but I think primarily replaces it with something not quite so unhealthy.

[Mr. GOH!]

Vaping is ostensibly healthier because you're not sucking in burnt matter like tar. The counterargument is that we don't know what chemical mist users are actually taking in, beyond nicotine (which is not all that healthy in and of itself). But since the accepted medical belief is that a lot of the negative side effects of smoking stem from directly breathing in burnt matter and chemicals in that matter that are not present in vapors inhaled during vaping, vaping is preferable, aside from the unknown chemicals users may be inhaling instead. All tobacco vaping is based on cartridges of liquid chemicals, including flavoring and nicotine, being boiled to a mist.

 

The issues are a bit different with vaping marijuana, as there are several methods for such vaping. You can buy oils and dabs and other weird shit and vape those, but a lot of marijuana vaping is based on the fact that the THC crystals and cannabinoids on marijuana boil at a much lower temperature than the plant matter burns, so you can essentially put untreated marijuana in a chamber and heat it enough so that the THC boils off and is inhaled, leaving an unburnt remnant that can be tossed. This means that marijuana vaping using the plant matter actually contains far fewer problematic chemicals than smoking marijuana and likely has little or no effect on lung function and health and also doesn't involve the use of additional chemicals of unknown safety.

[Strangelove]

We're all going to get cancer anyways. Throat cancer. Butt cancer. Boob cancer. Stomach cancer. Heart cancer. Brain cancer. Dick cancer probably. Etc.

Pfft.

[Mr. GOH!]

As a former smoker, I just feel healthier since I've quit. I mean, I am healthier, by objective standards, such as blood pressure and lung capacity, but it feels so much better to no longer smoke, aside from significantly lowering my chances of a number of other diseases related to smoking down the road. 

[FredEffinChopin]

Marijuana vaping is something that, in wax or oil form, is not very cost-effective as I understand it. I tried it once, and I personally didn't find it very satisfying either, not in the sense of the act of vaping it or in the result. If I had the money to burn (or vape; wak....ka) I suppose I might do it if I really needed to be low-key about things, but even then I'm more inclined to just go somewhere low-key with regular pot. Different strokes for different folks though. My friend whose (I think) wax I sampled was really into it. I also tried that dry-vape thing with him, and found that even less satisfying. They were each one-shot experiences though, and it's possible that my experiences happened to be flukes or duds or something... If either of those terms can be applied to something like that. 

 

 

Is vaping meant to be something that breaks the habit of smoking, or something that replaces it?

 

What Ethan said, but also some people are just going straight to vapor it seems, which has some concerned that progress made in spreading anti-smoking sentiment is being reversed. I think that can't possibly be going on, as people aren't smoking cigarettes, but that's just me. A lot of assumptions are made about the product that primarily stem from superficial similarities that vapor products share with cigarettes. The method of intake is similar (only similar since many people who vape don't inhale, since supposedly the nicotine can be absorbed via the skin inside the mouth in vapor. I can't speak to the accuracy of that at all.), the products are often designed to be shaped like cigarettes, and the liquid is designed to create thick vapor that resembles smoke. The similarities mostly end there. And the nicotine. That's also optional with vapor though. 

 

That was a bit of a tangent. For me, I intended these to replace cigarettes in certain situations. Once I started realizing that vapor can mostly satisfy the need for cigarettes altogether, I fully replaced them. Especially after noting how even the drastic slowdown for a few days left me feeling better than usual. Since I began I've gone through periods where I've not vaped at all, or done so pretty infrequently. Since school has had me sitting in chairs and reading for much longer stretches of time than I'm accustomed to though, I started to really want something to puff in in recent months, and so have been vaping fairly frequently at home. So I guess for me it has broken that habit of puffing on something altogether at times, but I've mostly replaced smoke with vapor. 

 

God, those giant sausage sized ones look stupid as fuck. I cant get over how stupid they look.

 

I wont delve too much into it, but I imight be one of the few who doesnt feel shame in smoking or wants to quit. It sucks when I have to run, but all the other hazards I dont really mind. Aging badly and cancer...eh. Im not very good looking now and I dont really want to be 100 years old. 

 

Yeah, I was really turned off by the appearance as well. I didn't expect to leave the house with it when I did eventually get one, and have only begun to do so recently. Even though they've become fairly common to see in the street (and I even get nods on the road from other vapers who catch my eye), I can't get over the fact that the giant piece of hardware I'm holding makes me look like such an addict. Even though it's far, far safer than smoking, I feel like I'm the guy inhaling cigarettes through a tracheal tube when I'm using one of those in public. I'm starting to get over it, though I still feel the need to say something in acknowledgment in front of people who see me with it for the first time. It's always a wonder for me when I see people boldly wearing them on strings around their necks. 

 

I'm pretty much with you on the second part. Circumstance caused me to seek an indoor solution, and I just decided to see how far I could take it. Once I got to a certain point I just couldn't go back. While I feel no need to come as close to immortality as humanly possible, it was so nice to enjoy increased lung capacity, and the loss of the occasional morning coughing. Even with the shift though, I still did eat more after quitting, and put on some weight. So now the other American killer, cholesterol, will get me instead. 

 

**EDIT**

@GOH - I was more worried about drinking making me want to smoke cigarettes than marijuana. I feel like if I ever had to drop smoke and vapor permanently, I'd probably have to avoid drinking permanently as well. Have you had any problem with that since quitting? Congratulations on 5 years, by the way.

Edited June 12, 2015 by FredEffinChopin

[Mr. GOH!]

Drinking only makes me want to smoke when I'm very drunk and around smokers. Most of my friends don't smoke cigarettes any longer and smoking is prohibited most places I go. It was much harder the first year or so after quitting, and, when I tried to quit eight years ago, drinking combined with the stress of law school got me back on cigarettes. But now I don't really get a craving even when I'm drunk.

 

I think the attitude you have to have, re: drinking making you want to smoke, is that if it only makes you smoke once in a while, there's no real harm done. It's if you smoke every time you drink that you're in trouble, if you drink frequently.

 

I love my booze and will not stop drinking unless ordered to by a doctor. But I don't drink that much, really, maybe four or five drinks a week.

[IDDQD]

I tried vaping once. Didn't do anything for me and holding the device instead of normal cig felt awkward. I also have some reservations about the fact that chemical compounts found in those liquids are mostly unknown. I mean, back in the day cigarettes were considered healthy until someone bothered to do some research. Speaking of research, I remember reading a paper which said that most of the time actual amount of nicotine is significantly lower than what it says on the label and liquids themselves are packed with bunch of other toxic shit, including various addictives. So yeah, not so healthy after all.

 

I'd say it's best to quit alltogether without trying to pacify the addiction with substitutes.

[Mr. GOH!]

Just because we don't know whether any of the additives have long term effects when inhaled via vapor doesn't mean that they're dangerous and I'd be dollars to donuts that even if there are some risks involved, they're far less than the risks associated with actually smoking cigarettes.

 

Human beings just freak the hell out about unknown risks and are terrible about evaluating risk in general.

[Strangelove]

Vaping gives you AIDs.

You heard it here first.

[IDDQD]

Human beings just freak the hell out about unknown risks and are terrible about evaluating risk in general.

I can imagine people saying similar things back when cigartettes were considered harmless. I prefer to assume that anything that isn't air shouldn't go into my lungs unless necessary.

[TheMightyEthan]

You know, it's not going to be very long before inflation makes a "dollars to donuts" bet actually kind of a good deal...

[madbassman39]

As said before, Vaping isn't healthy but its a hell of a lot healthier than filling your lungs with smoke.

 

On that note, I'm looking for a dry herb vape for weed. Something a little more portable. I don't need to go outside with it, but I also don't want to feel like I'm sucking out of a breathalyzer.

 

I looked into the oils and its way too expensive to switch over, and I really want to limit smoking to a bare minimum.

[FredEffinChopin]

I tried vaping once. Didn't do anything for me and holding the device instead of normal cig felt awkward. I also have some reservations about the fact that chemical compounts found in those liquids are mostly unknown. I mean, back in the day cigarettes were considered healthy until someone bothered to do some research. Speaking of research, I remember reading a paper which said that most of the time actual amount of nicotine is significantly lower than what it says on the label and liquids themselves are packed with bunch of other toxic shit, including various addictives. So yeah, not so healthy after all.

 

That might be a fact for you personally, but it certainly isn't a fact about e-cig juice. There not many chemicals required to make vapor juice, and they are not mostly, but completely known, as Dean's buddy and countless other DYI juice-makers are happily demonstrating for the world right now. In fact if you've ever been around a smoke machine, you've already inhaled one of the two major ingredients in vapor form. What we don't know is the long-term effects of inhaling the mixture habitually in vapor form, though at the moment there is little rational  basis for suspicion of it having significant health repercussions. We do know that they don't have any noticeable short-term effects though, since, despite what much of the fearmongering around the product would have you believe with all the yelling about how new it is, these things have been around for over a decade already, and there are people who have been using them as long (which in itself demonstrates that these aren't nearly as detrimental to respiratory health as a cigarette, since just about any decade+ cigarette smoker can tell you about the change in their health over that time, without needing to hear it from a doctor; and ex-smoker can tell you with even more clarity). Since there are many people from various communities who are quick to ring alarm bells around vapor on the simple basis of "It hasn't proven itself not to be bad yet," I can assure you that at the first signs of even a slight possibility of someone's serious adverse health effects being caused by vapor use, those same people will be beating the world over the head with it, thrilled that their response finally found its call. You might be the one who links it in here before I see it somewhere else =)

 

That's not the way concern over a danger works though, or at least not ideally. We don't point at things, say "That's dangerous because I don't know about it, and I'm going to believe that until it's proven otherwise." and wait for the thing to prove or disprove that characteristic. There should be some basis for believing something is dangerous before treating it like it is. Everything else should be monitored. Just because a product or process passes review by a specific organization doesn't mean that it's a thoroughly sussed out in any respect, and plenty of products have made it to market that prove to be dangerous way down the line. That's when we take the lead out of the paint and reset. We don't keep 50ft away from any new product that uses familiar components in an unfamiliar way without any informed awareness of a possible risk though. Nobody does that with anything else, and while we'll never be able to find out for sure, I'd confidently bet that if the same physiological element were to be introduced to society in some way that didn't resemble cigarette smoking, not nearly as many people would be freaking out about this. On the list of stupid things that people do to enjoy themselves that have some effect that might be worse than doing nothing at all, so far e-cigs don't make the top 1,000. Its unfortunate form factor (though it's exactly what makes it appealing and effective for many ex-smokers) has given it an unearned stigma.

 

To be clear on ingredients: While we don't know what every single producer of juice is including in the package, and while there is an old study floating around out there that cites some unsavory ingredients that weren't supposed to be in but were in some of the very, very few brands they sampled , that's not a problem inherent to e-cig juice, but a problem of lack of regulation that would exist in all industries that don't have it, and that we still see in a limited fashion despite regulations on almost every other major industry. There are countless independent, entrepreneurial-minded, juice-making individuals that have set up their own businesses, many of whom pride themselves and transparency, not to mention customizability of their product. So yes, not every e-cig juice is what it claims to be, but even with the market in its current, unregulated state, it's still fairly easy to find vendors who conduct business more honestly. For one who trusts nobody, they can always hit youtube and mix their own.

 

I'm personally hoping that the market regulation comes sooner than later, mainly in the form of some basic quality control. While I love the product in general, I don't typically trust industries to regulate themselves. While there has been indication of tobacco-industry interference with the e-cig market in the past, there is also heavy participation. If I'm not mistaken, RJ makes up a fair portion of the (cig-a-like) market already. I'm not to worried about Smokin Randy (not a real person) who is making his vape juice in the garage, not if he's already established a solid reputation in that market. Tobacco companies though, and many other corporations for that matter, will sneak rat piss into your products if it will save them some money and if they think nobody will notice. 

 

Regarding the paper you read: The conclusion that you reached from it can't possibly be reached by a study unless it's claiming to include a significant portion of the juice market. I'd like to see it if you can find it, but from what you've included in your post, I'm willing to bet it's the same exact one that I referenced earlier, as it's the only one that anyone had to cite for a long time, at least that cast a negative light on the product, and it was popular for that reason. It's sample size was woefully inadequate to draw any conclusions about the market though, and the analysis of chemicals in those brands doesn't say anything about the hundreds, if not thousands of other juices being sold, let alone about the effects of using those or any other juices as intended.

 

A lot of studies get reported on with misleading headlines. Some of them are inept as well. This is a really difficult process to analyze, as there are considerable variables involved. I have also seen some responsible, sober studies conducted that report some legitimate starting points for further exploration that might reveal what risks if any are involved with the activity. Nothing in them has shown anything conclusive, or even especially alarming. Much of the concern is about it being a gateway to smoking, and not even about the act of vaping itself. Here is a pretty neat and very recent Q&A collection with some medical experts that explore the phenomenon in a pretty level-headed way, if you're interested in reading it. 

 

I think the attitude you have to have, re: drinking making you want to smoke, is that if it only makes you smoke once in a while, there's no real harm done. It's if you smoke every time you drink that you're in trouble, if you drink frequently.

 

I love my booze and will not stop drinking unless ordered to by a doctor. But I don't drink that much, really, maybe four or five drinks a week.

 

Fortunately vapor serves me well while drinking, and I haven't resorted to cigarettes for that reason. I've revisited it on a couple of occasions, such as New Year's Eve, or when I was in Jamaica for a week for my friend's wedding. It's never been something that I resorted to out of compulsion yet though, even during drinking, which honestly surprises me even now. I totally expected to fall of the wagon when drinking. None of this is to say that I don't miss cigarettes at all, because I do crave them occasionally, and unlike many ex-smokers, I still love the smell of it when someone is doing it nearby. Vapor manages to satisfy me enough that I can get past it though, which is very cool.

 

And yeah, I imagine if you're a one-drink-a-day kind of guy the pressure isn't as bad as if you're (like I was at some point) a frequent *and* heavy drinker. Nowadays I rarely drink, but when I do I still pretty much look for the bottom of the bottle. In that state, I'm not sure I'd be able to go without anything to puff on. 

 

 

On that note, I'm looking for a dry herb vape for weed. Something a little more portable. I don't need to go outside with it, but I also don't want to feel like I'm sucking out of a breathalyzer.

 

I can't speak for this product at all, but this VaporFi is known as one of the premier makers of more expensive Ego-style batteries with all the bells and whistles, and they carry this dry vape device that, as I understand, is fairly inexpensive compared to most. I'd check some reviews first, of course, but it might be a decent device to go for if you want something smaller.

[Mr. GOH!]

Just to be clear, I'm not a one-drink-a-day guy. I'm a guy who doesn't drink most days but will have between one and four drinks on Friday and/or Saturday most weeks. Even having a beer on a weeknight is rare for me. And four or five drinks in over, say, three hours, won't get me very drunk at all. I wouldn't drive, but I also wouldn't say my judgment is radically impaired. If I have something like 8 or 10 drinks in the same time period and am around smokers, I will get a craving to this day. It's not hard to ignore it, but it's there.