G2A vs Tiny Build

[Thursday Next]

So, while Dean and Ethan shout at each other on Twitter, I'm going to put down some thoughts here so we can have more reasoned discussion unrestrained by a 140 char limit.

 

TinyBuild are seeing hundreds of thousands of $$$s worth of keys popping up on G2A. G2A says it doesn't check who is selling the keys, where they came form and is in no way responsible for the money that TinyBuild is losing (but they would be happy to buy keys for cheap from TinyBuild direct, undercutting TinyBuild's other partners who aren't screwing them over - how nice of them).

 

A number of the keys sold by G2A do come from "legit" if somewhat "grey" sources, like people who buy bundles, and then sell on unwanted keys, however the number of keys being traded, coupled with the number of charge backs on fraudulent purchases TinyBuild are seeing clearly point to wholesale fraudulent credit card purchasing.

 

Where I think G2A are being shady here is that unlike CEX and similar trade in outfits, G2A do nothing to verify a seller's identity, so someone can set up an anonymous account, sell a bunch of keys, cash out and disappear. G2A know (though they would never admit) that the keys are coming from questionable sources (otherwise how would an anonymous account (or several similar ones) turn up selling keys in small batches?), but G2A are happy to turn a blind eye as it is making them money.

 

TinyBuild are trying to do right by their consumers, they don't have the team size to track and monitor where all their keys are going to because it is more cost efficient to create large batches rather than small trackable ones. This means that they can't deactivate suspect keys without also deactivating legit keys. Even if they could, it would seem harsh to cancel someone's key when they bought it from G2A in good faith.

 

So there it is. I personally would avoid purchasing off of G2A for similar reasons to avoiding TeeChip. They are being willfully ignorant to dishonest, even criminal activity so that they can profit off of it and wash their hands of responsibility. 

 

[Thursday Next]

LevelCap says it very well fwiw.

 

[Mr. GOH!]

I am amused that digital pawnshops act very much like physical pawnshops. So shady.

 

Is there a duty in the EU for resellers to take reasonable steps to make sure they're not actually fencing stolen goods?

 

Edit: EU and/or UK, although from what I hear, every last local law and ordinance in the UK is dictated from on high in Brussels. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Mr. GOH!

[TheMightyEthan]

In our defense we had a perfectly friendly parallel exchange about whether I should preorder Mankind Divided with GMG's current 23% off voucher.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I decided not to because GMG takes the money out right away instead of when it's delivered, and they have comparable vouchers about once a month, so I'm going to wait.

 

[deanb]

We weren't shouting at all.

 

First up I should probably point out I picked up Guild Wars 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, and Watch_Dgs through G2A. I'm perfectly fine abusing global capitalism to get hold of games for cheap. Which is where most of G2As front of shop stock comes from is through Ukraine n the like. I've a Russian copy of Borderlands 2 sat in my Steam library. I've otherwise had no bother with them or other sites, keys work fine n all that. I also have a game on sale there atm just to trial it a bit n see how it works out. As best I can currently tell, in relation to selling an item, I can't see that you get raw cash out of the system either but G2A funds instead (much like the marketplace on Steam doesn't let you cash out either). But it'll be 14 days until it cashes out, which imo is enough time to have stuff checked over n the transaction cancelled or my account closed. Assuming G2A were to get any info that I was selling a "stolen" key (it's just from the Origin HIB)

 

Anyway first of all I'm strongly of the impression this is all a marketing exercise, we've seen this kind of stuff work before when Game Dev Tycoon was "pirated" and bit of minor investigation found that the only torrents that were on TPB of the game were put up there by the developers and had like 5 seeds. But the media caught onto the story of scrappy indie up against the big bad pirates (who were so gagging for the game they couldn't be arsed to crack and uploaded it themselves) and Game Dev Tycoon then went on to sell reasonably well. Story of how grey market key seller is facilitating credit card fraud and costing them "$450k"(I believe they're using a Leave economist for that one*). And yeah, you do a google for either Tinybuild or G2A n there's plenty articles up there with links to their games (n you know how folks like to show solidarity by buying games to show those bullies). The fact that it's TinyBuild who are pushing all these links to Reddit is kinda leaning on that theory a fair bit more.

 

Secondly TinyBuild are totally fucking up for not being able to identify which keys are with which chargeback. It's through their own damn website. I could understand if it was keys sent out in lump to HIB, or other bundle site, or for give-aways or something but their site doesn't sell in bulk. I also think TinyBuild are also kinda stupid in not having any list of authorised retailers on their site*. Cos surely it'd come across as rather weird if you featured G2A sponsored streamer PewDiePie in one of your games, but then say that G2A are totally nothing to do with you. They literally only list Steam for their games, but you can find their games on IndieGameStand, Humble Bundle, GoG, AllKeysShop* etc. I can take a fair guess that the latter isn't a direct partnership, but then there was a bit of bother a while back between CDProjekt n GMG because GMG, who are generally considered fairly "legit" weren't authorised retailer of Witcher n were getting it through other means. Probably the same means the majority of G2A games comes from (that aren't on the Marketplace).

 

I'm also not keen on their latest suggestion being allowing developers to set minimum sale amounts given that'd amount to price fixing, which is afaik pretty dang illegal. I've plenty spare keys from Humble Bundles, and I generally just give them away, but oh no gotta charge a pretty penny for it now n then throw a few bones at the developer cos right of first sale isn't a thing either. In fact for cases like this where a dev complains at folks selling bundle keys: don't put your game in a super discounted bundle and then folks can't buy it for pennies n sell them on while undercutting your regular amount. Which has also been advice, much like the "list your damn authorised retailers", that's been going around for years.

 

The other alternative is G2A close down the Marketplace n just sell Russian keys(which used to be the old complaint levied at them), and...it'll move elsewhere. The reselling of keys is perfectly legitimate, at least within the EU. The only legal issue here is G2A not verifying if the keys are the result of someone selling keys from doing a chargeback or from folks who bought some stuff on Humble, already own a few of the games, and selling the spare keys on. As it currently stands G2A can invalidate the accounts selling dodgy keys through TinyBuild providing a list of the chargeback keys but TinyBuild refuse, and I think largely cos the above in that they don't much care on resolution for this as it's mainly to get publicity (I imagine getting a public response wasn't really part of the plan). If I walked into CeX and decried them for laundering my stolen property they'd be right to prove that the PS4 they have on the shelf is mine, and if I can they'll work with me on sorting it out. If however I was to be all "no, I am not showing you the receipt for it and my registration for the serial on this and my police case number!" then they'd be right to tell me to get on my bike (unless you're around daniel n that'd be bad idea). TinyBuild clearly aren't going into this with any good faith at all.

 

Also worth noting, as I did on Twitter, G2A have never said that they'd only look into it if Tinybuild became official partners. It's literally: "I would be happy to look into that however I will say this requires TinyBuild to want to work with G2A." in a "you need to work with your therapist to get the most out of it" kind of way doesn't mean I should join them.

 

Chargebacks will happen regardless of G2A existing or not, and that's entirely on TinyBuilds head to deal with. One solution is to bulk up their store infrastructure, especially if they wish to continue their plan of being a publisher, or the other solution is go through likes of Steam n HiB who have the functionality for dealing with that in place already and save yourself a bunch of headaches (which to a degree they have done). Just a few figures myself as well put SpeedRunners, the one with PewDiePie, according to SteamSpy (which is an estimate) at just over a million sales, well beyond the 29K copies sold on G2A Marketplace (which are even further eclipsed by the piracy rater they posted about a few months ago).

 

Yeah it's shitty that TinyBuilds store was used to facilitate credit card fraud, but it's on their head to deal with. They're wanting to play publisher n distributor n go after the bug guys like Steam you need to make sure your solution is somewhat robust. Steam deals with way more purchases than the few thousand TinyBuild had and are quite able to lock off your account if your card issues a chargeback without being "well we don't know whose account this game is with". And if you're concerned with facilitating this as a consumer, then TinyBuilds singular and only legitimate authorised retailer is Steam, so avoid buying a key from HIB/GMG/GOG etc. Devolver Digital, who have waded into this debate with a much more solid head, have this on the footer of their site: http://www.devolverdigital.com/static/vendors/which makes it pretty dang clear n easy to work out (even if it's weird they have Nuuvem on there n a bunch of super-discount bundle sites)

 

 

*Seriously, they even showed how they twiddled their maths in their own blog article. 

**To be fair their site is also kinda horrible and all over the place too so I can totally understand why they might not have the means to properly track sales either.

***(These guys came 4 on a search to buy Punch Club, after Steam, Tiny Build, then iTunes, n above GoG, being related to my job n all means I know GoG don't even get a look in here)

[Mister Jack]

You can get Mankind Divided for 36.97 on cdkeys right now.  Just saying.  It seems a lot simpler and the price is pretty much just as good.

[TheMightyEthan]

Hmm, didn't realize they do preorders.  Do they charge immediately or do they wait till it's delivered?

 

@Dean:  Yeah I didn't feel like we were shouting either, but sometimes other people think I come across as more aggressive/hostile than I intend so I just went with it.

[Mister Jack]

That I don't know.  You could always ask them, I suppose, though I don't know why you'd need to preorder this far in advance anyway.

[TheMightyEthan]

Just to lock in the low price, in case it goes up.  But beyond that I don't actually care to preorder it earlier than like a day before release.

[Thursday Next]

I was being facetious about the shouting. Chill out dudes.

[deanb]

NO U!!

[TheMightyEthan]

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I find it hard to believe people are buying $450k worth of Tinybuild's games.