UK Politics Thread

[deanb]

 

 

[TheFlyingGerbil]

"we are kidding ourselves to think we yet live in a tolerant, liberal society"

Tim Farron has quit as leader of the Lib Dems, feeling under scrutiny for his religious beliefs, even after saying he didn't let his beliefs affect his politics.

I have to admit it makes me slightly uncomfortable to know an MP is strongly religious (rather than just culturally - I guess most would say they are Christian, but not practising) but if they can separate what they personally believe from what is best for the public/aligned to their party's stance (which seems to be the case here) it is sad that they feel they can't carry out their duties. I guess everyone has their own motivations for their decisions and a lot of them are less clear than religion. I think I need  to work on my prejudices.

[Mr. GOH!]

It seems weird and disingenuous to say that one's belief doesn't affect one's politics. Did he mean he would protect the rights of people to do things he religiously disapproves of?

[TheFlyingGerbil]

The specific "hounding" was that the repeated question, "do you think gay sex is a sin?". He wouldn't answer at first then dodged with, "I don't think being gay is a sin" which is not answering the question, and is in fact the way a lot of religious people answer. Finally he said he did not believe gay sex is a sin, but it is believed this is what he thinks compromised his religion though obviously he's not going to come out and say this specifically.

He has voted in favour of gay rights and same sex marriage (not just civil partnerships) which is in line with his party's politics but may well not be his own beliefs so it seems on this issue at least on the face of it he was keeping the two separate.

Edited June 14, 2017 by TheFlyingGerbil

[deanb]

If memory serves a biggy has been his track record with gay rights in the past (though err so has the current PM, but she's in a party that doesn't market it self as being liberal). I'd say that given Lib Dems can have quite a large youth vote and most youths are pro-gay rights that it was considered a bit of a clash between the party and its voters.

[Hot Heart]

With Farron, specifically, it was regards to his views on homosexuality being a sin. When it came to legislation on same-sex marriage, etc. he would acknowledge the shared party view rather than his own.

However, I think it was shown that he actually acted in a way that hid what he was really doing. I can't remember the specifics but the surface appearance about how he voted on certain LGBTQ rights (viewable on https://www.theyworkforyou.com/) made him look golden but someone did some digging and I think he was further abstaining or voting down subsequent things.

The same could be said of Corbyn, whereby he was against certain things like Trident but would accept the wider party view.

On the subject of religion, May is a vicar's daughter and kept banging on about her fucking faith before the election. God guided you well there, Theresa.

[Mr. GOH!]

Hmm. I think there's a difference between voting for a policy you don't like in order to help your party or carry out what its constituents want and voting for a policy that you think is evil and wrong based on your religion. In the first instance, you;re just doing politics. Int he second, you're betraying your fundamental beliefs.

[TheMightyEthan]

The way I look at it, if you're a politician and hold religious views (or really any moral views) I find morally problematic then there are two options: either you will, based on those views, act in ways I don't want, so I don't want you in office, or you lack the moral conviction to stick to your beliefs, so I don't want you in office.

[Thursday Next]

I don't think Tim Farron lacks conviction. I think that he thinks gay sex is a sin, but at the same time I think that he respects that people have the right to do stuff that he doesn't agree with. I mean that's essentially the Liberal ethos right? You're free to do what you want (within legal limits), I'm free to think what I want about what you do, you're free to ignore me, etc. So long as we are all free and equal that is what is important. Tim's voting record shows that he holds to liberal views of freedom and equality, even when he is given a free vote or is the boss and can do what he wants (in theory).

I think Tim stepping down is because his religion is an exposed weak point for the Lib Dems and come the next election (which will probably be sooner than later) the party want a leader who won't be so easy to attack on that front.

[Hot Heart]

Yeah, I think it's case of what's best for the party. As soon as he couldn't definitively answer that question about gay sex early during the campaign, they lost that liberal credibility.  And if you'll allow me to majorly digress, not even the "second referendum" stuff was a draw for them. Partly, because I think most people have resigned themselves to the fact that we must now leave the EU, despite the fact that we have no fucking clue how that's supposed to work. It's a tangle of elements and certain aims are incompatible with others while "no deal" is the stupidest fucking thing ever. Meanwhile, all we get are sound bites about a "Red, White & Blue Brexit" and a Brexit department made up of the stupidest, most corrupt politicians going (Liam Fox, seriously?!) who managed a 100-page document in 11 months and I bet 18 pages of that is getting a letter-by-letter "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT" in there.

People want more controls on immigration, etc. (even though the UK isn't part of Schengen) but that clashes with remaining in the Single Market and freedom of movement. And politicians bandy about this idea of retaining "access" to the single market when EVERYONE already has "access" to the single market, it just carries a much higher cost than being part of it. Not to mention that failing even to guarantee rights for EU citizens is already driving away tens of thousands of workers and students, both absolutely vital parts of the economy.

And then there's the idea of "we'll be free to make trade deals with other countries" except that then requires leaving the Customs Union, which still subjects you to the ECJ for trade stuff and then requires a hard border in Northern Ireland.

And even Labour has endorsed leaving the single market even though that's sure to tank the economy and make every single public services funding aim an impossibility.

It just boggles my mind that this massive framework of stuff was put down to a simple YES/NO vote and no one else is really taking a stand that there needs to be a second decision on this. The first referendum could've broken this down into different aspects as regards to the ECHR, ECJ, Single Market, Customs Union and then people would've been forced to actually Google "what is the EU" before voting.

If there's anything the last few years should have shown people it's that the Tories are absolutely not "a safe pair of hands" but a group of well-off, self-interested charlatans.

[deanb]

Yeah, the referendum was meant to be "advisory" but for some reason has been taken as a mandate to do whatever the ruling government wants to do (including stuff like the "Great Repeal Bill").

An Italian friend of mine had a bit of a freak out the other day actually when I joked to a Brit friend about his upcoming move to Holland and how he might end up back soon, she's not exactly in a stable place atm for if she'll be able to continue to live in the UK.

I carry on getting my hopes up a little when you've folks like Macron being like "the door is still open to cancel it all", which I'd say we're nearing point of no return on since we at least haven't really started negotiations yet.

[Mr. GOH!]

I look forward to the UK economy tanking and the Tory government selling off your public assets for management by private equity companies from the EU and US, which will proceed to siphon the rest of your money. The irony, at least, will be delicious.

[Thursday Next]

Ahhh Mr. GOH! I'm delighted that the funeral pyre of our economy will brighten your day.  

I'm still desperately clinging to the hope that May's government won't last anything like a full year, let alone five, we can then kick the negotiations with Europe off again, reset the clock, and maybe just try and spin this one out with bureaucracy forever like the USA does with moving its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. 

[TheMightyEthan]

On the radio this morning they had a British reporter talking about the state of Brexit, and she said you guys are in this absolutely bizarre situation where there are large blocks of moderates in both the government and the opposition who want to have a serious discussion, but they're being prevented from doing so by the extreme wings of the parties.

As an American I have absolutely no idea what that must be like.

[deanb]

 

Eh, who needs to actually work out what the impact of Brexit will be. Just power on through.

[Mal]

That deserves some kind of award.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

6 hours ago, Mal said:

That deserves some kind of award.

 

A Darwin Award

[Mr. GOH!]

Only it goes to a whole country. ??

[deanb]

 

The fucking cheek. Gotta love that "Nah, home is sarf landan mate" response.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT!

 

Looks like you guys are losing all your voting rights but staying in the customs union.

[Mr. GOH!]

Brexit is so stupid. I like that it distracts me from how dumb our President is.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I wish our nightmare could be over in six years max. This is exactly the predicament every sane person knew we would end up in - still bound by rules we now have no say in. In my terribly uninformed opinion I think the state aid part is going to be particularly ruinous for us as it already never seems to play out in our favour and having our own rules for that was actually one of the few silver linings I saw to the brexit cloud.

 

 I struggle to see how we could have had a worse outcome from the negotiations. Though it could actually be so bad that it does not get voted for by MPs and that would lead to a potential new referendum or even a general election. But that would require the conservative MPs to  vote in the public interest rather than in a self-serving manner to keep themselves in power so I have little expectation of that actually coming to pass.

[Mal]

 

[TheMightyEthan]

 

This video seemed like a nice, concise explanation of the current issue the UK government is having, but I wondered if folks inside the UK agree.

[Mr. GOH!]

Every time I despair of US politics,  the absolute shitstorm around Brexit makes me feel better about the people of my country.  I mean,  the fact that so many Brits stand by the Tories is mind-bending.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Mr. GOH!