UK Politics Thread

[danielpholt]

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/covid-19-inquiry-thousands-deaths-avoided-pandemic-mps-report-lockdown-distancing-1243492

 

Not much of this is news, we already knew we went into lockdown later than we should have (three times). We already knew the government totally failed to wrap care homes in a protective bubble in order to save thousands and we know that a decade of chronic underfunding to the NHS caused massive issues with regards to PPE.

 

+4 Con

 

Shit like this should end governments, and in a more educated and democratic country I think it probably would, or at least there'd be a serious chance it if causing significant issues going forward. We all know that come the next election, the electorate will largely forget about all this shit and reward them with another majority.

 

 

[Thursday Next]

I actually don't mind Blair, Iraq war aside (which itself was a symptom of being too reliant on the US and not enough on our EU neighbours) I think he left the country in a better state than it is now. I think that he was best we are likely to get, given that the media has painted the country against ever electing anything close to a socialist government.

 

My dad always says "countries get the governments they deserve" which is, a bit reductive, but in the UK's case, we (as a nation) don't seem to want to elect a government that actually wants to help those in need, and ask those who can afford it to help pay for it.

[TheMightyEthan]

[danielpholt]

21 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

I actually don't mind Blair, Iraq war aside (which itself was a symptom of being too reliant on the US and not enough on our EU neighbours) I think he left the country in a better state than it is now. I think that he was best we are likely to get, given that the media has painted the country against ever electing anything close to a socialist government.

 

My dad always says "countries get the governments they deserve" which is, a bit reductive, but in the UK's case, we (as a nation) don't seem to want to elect a government that actually wants to help those in need, and ask those who can afford it to help pay for it.

 

I'll take Blair and New Labour over anything we've had since in a heartbeat. Iraq was clearly a mistake, but on the whole I feel like the country was in a much better place than it was before, or after the Labour government left office. 

 

That being said Blair is far from perfect, and his lack of contrition at times really rubs people up the wrong way. 

 

If only Brown had called the election in 2007 rather than 2010; he likely would have won that one and who knows, maybe we avoid 15+ years of a resurgent Tory party.

[danielpholt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58930593

 

This has absolutely no place in British politics, and yet here we are. Two murdered MP's inside what, 5-6 years? It's absolutely fucking horrible news for all involved, and in a larger political context, does nothing but deepen divides, and put more barriers up between constituents and those they represent. 

 

Supremely angry right now. I hope they've got the deluded c*nt that did this. Fuck everything about this on every single level.

[Thursday Next]

I hate how the media that constantly whip up storms with their "Enemies of the People", "Crush the Saboteurs", "Traitors" etc headlines take literally zero responsibility for the monster they were and still are feeding. They look all wide eyed and innocent and wring their hands and say "how did it come to this" and I'm just like "How!? You were driving the fucking bus here is how!"

[TheMightyEthan]

Who could have predicted someone would do the thing we've been encouraging them to do?!

[danielpholt]

 

Truly inspiring. 

 

The Tories are lying stains on our society, but they know how to coin a good phrase. 'Get Brexit Done', 'Build Back Better', fuck, even 'Strong and Stable' meant something. 

 

You want to get people interested in politics, you've got to get them invested in a better future; Corbyn (for all his faults) did that, but once again the party under Starmer is found wanting. 

[Thursday Next]

The problem is that Starmer seems to have listened to the people complaining he wasn't "passionate" enough and has dropped his analytical, forensic barrister style. This is a problem because he is really good at barristering, and not great at fluff and passion.

 

I'd rather see an ad from them that just set out in clear terms "this is how the tories fucked, this is how we're gonna fix it".

[danielpholt]

7 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

The problem is that Starmer seems to have listened to the people complaining he wasn't "passionate" enough and has dropped his analytical, forensic barrister style. This is a problem because he is really good at barristering, and not great at fluff and passion.

 

I'd rather see an ad from them that just set out in clear terms "this is how the tories fucked, this is how we're gonna fix it".

 

 

I just don't think he's all that good a politician. He's very good at coming across as serious, and that should in theory work well against Johnson's bluster, but it just doesn't chime with what the British public wants from it's elected officials. He's totally lacking in charisma and personality, whereas Johnson has it in droves. 

 

As for clear terms, I agree. Unfortunately they've lost all sense of reason and are doubling-down on focus groups and Blairite thinking about how to win over undecideds and lite-Tory voters, at the expense of those that have, and will continue to vote Labour. You can't out-Tory a Tory.

 

Unfortunately there's a complete dearth of talent in the ranks; both on the right and the left of the party. Even if we did change it up, I'm not sure where they'd turn. 

[Thursday Next]

Yeah, ya see, I think that over time people would come around to Starmer's personality and style.

 

To be honest with you, I think he does have personality, and charm. The tory supporting press and Corbyn supporting labour factions are keen to push the "Starmer has no personality" line, which people are quick to parrot just like they did with "Corbyn is a terrorist supporter" and "EU laws make our lives more difficult". But when you hear vox pops from people who have actually met him they describe him as a charming and interested person.

 

I feel like people assume that because he is calm, and doesn't shout, and sticks to the facts instead of lurching into hyperbole that he doesn't have "passion". I have a similar personality, and it grinds my gears when people make those assumptions about me.

 

I also think the british public needs to give their collective head a wobble. We need leaders with substance, not entertaining front men.

[TheMightyEthan]

18 hours ago, danielpholt said:

As for clear terms, I agree. Unfortunately they've lost all sense of reason and are doubling-down on focus groups and Blairite thinking about how to win over undecideds and lite-Tory voters, at the expense of those that have, and will continue to vote Labour. You can't out-Tory a Tory.

 

This is just like the Democrats over here. They're so concerned with courting moderate Republicans that they completely ignore all the people on the left who don't vote for them because they're too similar to Republicans. And then those moderate Republicans they're trying to attract still vote Republican anyway because they're Republicans.

[danielpholt]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:54 PM, TheMightyEthan said:

 

This is just like the Democrats over here. They're so concerned with courting moderate Republicans that they completely ignore all the people on the left who don't vote for them because they're too similar to Republicans. And then those moderate Republicans they're trying to attract still vote Republican anyway because they're Republicans.

 

I guess in their estimation the 'Left' have nowhere else to go. We do have the Greens, although with the nature of first past the post voting, voting Green could largely be considered a 'wasted' vote (I wouldn't say that, but it massively benefits the Conservative party to see Labour/Left voters splitting their vote). 

 

A fairer system of voting would actually sort this mess out; we had a chance to change that in '97, but we did nothing because like most parties in power, we thought it'd last forever and hey guess what? It never does. 

 

On 10/28/2021 at 9:49 AM, Thursday Next said:

Yeah, ya see, I think that over time people would come around to Starmer's personality and style.

 

To be honest with you, I think he does have personality, and charm. The tory supporting press and Corbyn supporting labour factions are keen to push the "Starmer has no personality" line, which people are quick to parrot just like they did with "Corbyn is a terrorist supporter" and "EU laws make our lives more difficult". But when you hear vox pops from people who have actually met him they describe him as a charming and interested person.

 

I feel like people assume that because he is calm, and doesn't shout, and sticks to the facts instead of lurching into hyperbole that he doesn't have "passion". I have a similar personality, and it grinds my gears when people make those assumptions about me.

 

I also think the british public needs to give their collective head a wobble. We need leaders with substance, not entertaining front men.

 

Without a doubt we need leaders who are solid on substance, but that just isn't how politics works right now. And I'd argue that Starmer is both poor on policy and on charisma. He's being beaten on both flanks at the moment and it's a poor look. 

 

Take the nurses pay rise for example. Classic rope-a-dope by the Tories. Come in with a low offer, let Labour shoot themselves in the foot by offering a slighter higher (but not nearly high enough counter-offer) and then come back with an even higher offer that they were always going to come back with. 

 

Starmer's been desperate to claw back some semblance of competency, but time and time again he's been out manoeuvred by a Tory party that aren't playing by the rules that they'd stringently stuck to in the past; raising taxes, increased spending (during the Pandemic). They're routinely getting beaten by them on the left, that's absolutely unacceptable to me as a Labour member. 

 

I'm a Corbyn fan, but he clearly wasn't a good leader, of that there can be no doubt. The problem is their so scared of the ghost of Corbyn (rightly or wrongly) that they're trying to shift the party into the center, which is a losing position when you're running up against the Tories, and a British public who for the most part, are fairy happy to vote Tory regardless of what they're doing. 

 

For Labour to win they *have to* offer something truly different. Yes they have to be highly competent and their leader has to be likeable, but ultimately that isn't enough; it never has been. You've got to offer the British public something different because they have (and will) continue to vote for the devil they know until you offer them something truly new and exciting (and viable).

 

A strong Lib Dem vote doesn't hurt either, sponge up some of those softer Tories that wouldn't dream of voting Labour. 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean for that to go on for as long as it did. I deleted Twitter and yeah, this is my only outlet. 

[TheMightyEthan]

They're kind of right that the left has nowhere else to go, if you ignore the idea that if you're too far right the left just won't vote at all.

[Thursday Next]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:14 PM, danielpholt said:

Sorry, I didn't mean for that to go on for as long as it did. I deleted Twitter and yeah, this is my only outlet. 

 

I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I wasn't a "Corbyn fan", but I did agree with his policies, I voted LD  last election as they were the most likely to unseat the Tories here (I always try to vote policies rather than politics fwiw and therefore tend to swing between Lab and LD depending on tactical realities).

 

I'm still gutted that the country voted against the AV system proposed by the Lib Dems during the coalition. It was a great chance to have a more representative democracy, and having gotten away with it, not something the Tories are likely to risk again.

 

My hope is that Starmer is keeping his powder dry and will come out with some sensible, ambitious, left leaning, fully costed policies come election manifesto time, rather than sharing his vision now and giving the Tory machine time to develop talking points and strategies against those policies. We'll see.

[danielpholt]

5 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

 

I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I wasn't a "Corbyn fan", but I did agree with his policies, I voted LD  last election as they were the most likely to unseat the Tories here (I always try to vote policies rather than politics fwiw and therefore tend to swing between Lab and LD depending on tactical realities).

 

I'm still gutted that the country voted against the AV system proposed by the Lib Dems during the coalition. It was a great chance to have a more representative democracy, and having gotten away with it, not something the Tories are likely to risk again.

 

My hope is that Starmer is keeping his powder dry and will come out with some sensible, ambitious, left leaning, fully costed policies come election manifesto time, rather than sharing his vision now and giving the Tory machine time to develop talking points and strategies against those policies. We'll see.

 

AV never stood a chance when those that had the most to benefit from keeping FPTP in place were running a campaign based around this sort of bullshit. (Also, the idea that £250m is a fuck-load of money in the year 2021 is absolutely laughable - it's a rounding error).

 

 

That being said, we fall for it every single time because our electorate is ill-informed and disinterested....which I totally understand. Democracy isn't working in this country and whilst I disagree with the result, I totally understand why people tune out when it comes to the day-to-day stuff that makes up our democratic system; for the vast majority of people it seems like they're fucked regardless of who's in charge (assuming even that they feel like their vote matters; for many it simple doesn't).

 

I could go on all day about how to make our system more balanced and more.....direct; but we both know there's absolutely no way we see any of those sort of changes whilst the Tories are in power. 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheMightyEthan]

£250m is less than what you save each week from leaving the EU!

[danielpholt]

11 hours ago, TheMightyEthan said:

£250m is less than what you save each week from leaving the EU!

 

Exactly!

 

Now if only we had a more left-leaning government in place to handle the transition away from the EU, maybe we could actually make it work in some meaningful way. 

[Thursday Next]

On 11/2/2021 at 4:59 PM, danielpholt said:

That being said, we fall for it every single time because our electorate is ill-informed and disinterested....which I totally understand.

 

100% agree with this. The right answer is usually complicated, difficult, time consuming and most of all, b o r i n g.

 

Yeah, AV would have taken some time and money to set up, yes it meant you had to learn complicated concepts like 1st preference and 2nd preference, but it would have made voting sooooo much more meaningful.

 

Same with leaving the EU, boring chat about economics, rights, harmonised standards etc, intangible concepts of "soft power" all that boring stuff was nothing compared to brown people turning up to take your benefits/jobs (delete as appropriate) and people with funny accents telling you what to do.

 

On the bright side, the Tories deciding that one of their own taking 3x in bribes lobbying compared to what he made as an MP did not even warrant the slap on the wrist of a 30 day suspension seems to have managed to actually piss off the Daily Mail, which is the equivalent of seeing Fox openly criticise the Republicans (although I note that the Mail blames "the commons" rather than the Tories).

[danielpholt]

 

I originally posted this to Discord but figured it deserved a more thorough discussion on here.

 

So the poll doesn't really change much from 2016; the demographics break down in much the same ways they did before. The big one here is the '2016 No Vote' category that massively favours 'Rejoin'.

 

I guess I'm just like..where were these people in 2016? If even half of those that could have voted actually went out and voted we'd have avoided a lot of the mess of the last 5 years. I get it, most people in this country feel like they're not listened to, that they don't have any real input into how the country is governed, or that they're only voting for slightly different shades of the same corrupt MP's. I'm totally sympathetic to those arguments and we absolutely have to crack the nut that is getting people reengaged in our democracy because at the moment it isn't working..but fuck me guys please go vote.

 

The Tories get to reign over this country, treat the poor like shit and aggressively chase the votes of a small minority because the young in this country do not go out and vote (and I'm sympathetic to some of those arguments for why this is happening, truly).

 

I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. My vote essentially means nothing; it sucks and it shouldn't be like this. However, I do vote because for every single vote that goes in a column that isn't blue, my Tory MP has to take a second to think whether or not voting against school meals is a good idea. He has to think if he should be voting against cutting UC for the poorest in our society, he has to think about if he wants to vote for more corruption etc etc.

 

So yes, my vote doesn't 'count' in as much as I'm not going to oust my Tory MP in his safe Tory seat, but the more like-minded people that go out and vote takes his safe seat, and makes it a little less safe, and that's a valid way of influencing our politics.

 

Until our system changes this is what we've got. The system stays the same because it suits those that benefit from it. Until we force change through the voting booth, that's not going to change. 

 

 

[danielpholt]

I think we're finally starting to see the Tories lose ground in the polls. Granted, polls aren't everything but it's a decent indicator for how the public is feeling about a certain topic, and right now, the Tories are fighting fires in all directions....and it's finally starting to change people's perceptions of them.

 

My only concern is that with the arrival of BoJo's child he'll have a few weeks to hide away and see if this entire thing passes by. If it does, he might survive for a while but if it doesn't shift soon, I think we're seeing the end of BoJo as (at the very least) an uncontested leader of the Conservative party.

[Mal]

What the hell? What are you folks up to?

 

 

[danielpholt]

8 hours ago, Mal said:

What the hell? What are you folks up to?

 

 

 

This was one the cards when the British Government stripped an IS supporter of her Citizenship a few years ago. Unfortunately because 1) she's brown and 2) she went off to fight for IS the good British public didn't question it too much and now where in a situation where the Govt has carte blanche in this regard.

 

It's an absolute disgrace, but most people just don't care because...you know.

 

 

 

 

[Thursday Next]

21 hours ago, danielpholt said:

 

This was one the cards when the British Government stripped an IS supporter of her Citizenship a few years ago. Unfortunately because 1) she's brown and 2) she went off to fight for IS the good British public didn't question it too much and now where in a situation where the Govt has carte blanche in this regard.

 

It's an absolute disgrace, but most people just don't care because...you know.

 

 

 

 

 

I know you know, but to be clear... She didn't "fight for IS". She was groomed at the age of 15, lured to Syria, married to an IS fighter, bore several children all of whom died.

 

She was a handy test case for the govt, especially when (in a camp of IS refugees/prisoners, surrounded by people who were still adherents to IS) she did not express the remorse/disdain that the general public wanted (I would question how vocal most Daily Mail readers would be in their opposition to IS in the same situation).

 

I'm not remotely surprised that in classic "they came for" style that Shamima was the thin end of the wedge.

[danielpholt]

 

 

Love to see the Tories lose a seat, especially when it was utterly avoidable. Another nail in Johnson's coffin....which I think might be a bad thing for Labour.

 

IMO they want to keep this mess rolling for a while. I can see them beating Johnson in a general, I don't feel as strongly about Sunak.