Piracy

[Cyber Rat]

Let's talk about piracy! That's always a popular subject amongst gamers. Have ever resorted or would you ever resort to pirating a game? Is it ever justified? Like for example when there's no demo and you want to try out the game before you buy it? Is it immoral or just illegal? If it's not illegal wherever you are, would it still be immoral? Should one refrain from even pirating shitty Ubisoft DRM games?

 

And of course, what is the best way to combat piracy?

[Mister Jack]

I don't download games that are still commercially available at retail, but I find it hard to sympathize with companies that use restrictive DRM. It's pretty much either buy the game and get all this borderline spy shit on your PC or download it and bypass all that. What do these companies expect to happen?

[Outkastprince]

Pirating is stealing, there's really nothing you can say to justify it. I wish people would just say their stealing, except come up with all these pathetic excuses, like that one where because something is a copy so it's okay? I see it this way, if Pony drew something on a PC paint program that took weeks, and then was charging people for her work but I took it for free would it be okay cause it's just a copy? I mean, she didn't lose any money, so it must be okay?

 

Stealing is stealing, enough said.

[D-K]

I pirate/emulate the retro stuff, games that usually aren't sold anywhere where I can get them. (I don't do ebay)

That said, I do fully intend to play pokemon and Golden Sun without a DS. It's not a money issue, I just REALLY dislike the handheld itself so I won't be buying it. Since I do want to play those 2 games, I'll use an emulator.

 

That is mostly the extent of my piracy, NES games, Snes games(I will be buying an actual snes in januari though), Neo Geo, and super smash bros on N64.

 

Logically: "I want to try it but there's no demo" is NOT a justification. Not at all. The only way to really justify piracy is to adopt an individual (nihilistic) paradigm and forego the standard socio-moral paradigm, as it eliminates the need for justification entirely.

 

As long as there's enough good guys, I'll be one of the bad ones.

Edited January 1, 2011 by D-K

[Cyber Rat]

This is not mine, but I do think it's a nicely written argument on the subject:

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

The issue is not that it isn't theft. The issue is that technology has democratized consumption, and the companies at the heart of the issue have failed to react, adapt, and cater to these new consumption methods in an effective way.

Media companies are adamant about retaining their control over the consumption habits of customers, and desire to direct the path of the industry themselves.

 

The fact of the matter is that piracy, theft or not, DOES serve a functional purpose for consumers aside from simply taking shit they want without paying.

The ability to try before you buy, as it were (which, as evidenced by the consumption patterns of pirates, is a pretty common pattern of behavior), allows customers to identify and expose themselves to more media, and to more knowledgably direct their money towards artists and content creators that they feel have earned it. The democratization of media allows consumers to identify products they don't like, preventing them from wasting money, and allowing them to spend that money on products they do.

 

Legal Consumption in this manner isn't inherently costing media companies money. More simply it's made consurmers much more avid, efficient consumers of media, and has granted us a much greater ability to direct industry trends.

 

Under the old model of content distribution, media finding and exploration present HUGE financial obstacles to consumers. This is what generated the pop superstar back in the 50's and 60's. With those obstacles being torn down, the industry has seen a huge surge of indie artists, and unknowns getting significant exposure. The industry is seeing fewer big, easily bankable stars, but the tradeoff is thousands upon thousands of niche markets, scrambling for more.

 

The industry needs to work at monetizing and catering to this new breath of taste, and they need to bereak down the barries of media exploration. Understand that people want to know what they're spending their money on before that money is spent, and the industry needs to find ways of providing that access to information in a low-investment way.

 

It's not impossible to rebuild an industry model around consumer need. But the way to curb piracy, and wrap these people into the fold is decidedly not to call them all criminals and sue them into the dark ages.

 

It's also not to cling vehemently to a distribution model that was born there.

A person who pirates 1000 CDs, but buys 100 of their favorites is doing a great deal more to support the industry than a person who bought 5 or 6 nickelback records, and Big Shiny Tunes 3.

 

It's also worthy of note - in the old model it's up to the industry to find, identify, and build fanbases for artists. Under the new model, we do that for them.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Cyber Rat

[Outkastprince]

D-K, stop using big words man. You know damn well my copy of Urban Dictionary doesn't have any of that shit.

[D-K]

The biggest word I used was justification.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=justification BAM!

 

He shoots he scores!

Edited January 1, 2011 by D-K

[HotChops]

It's too early in the morning for me to comment in-depth, but I will say something regarding the allegiances of people in this matter:

 

In the product purchase cycle, there are a number of involved parties -- the publisher, the developer, the retailer, the consumer, and pirates. Personally, I think it's important to maintain a balance between these groups.

 

Slowly over the years, I've seen the power shift significantly away from the developers and consumers over to the big publishers. This is wrong in my opinion and I think it has badly damaged the game industry and free-market capitalism in general.

 

It's surprising to me how much some people stand up for publishers against pirates, and I think that's the wrong choice. I'm not really a big fan of pirating and I don't do it myself, but I feel like the last people the consumer should be showing loyalty to right now are the publishers.

 

It's kind of a separate topic, but I could go on for hours about all the things I think publishers have done wrong lately.

 

You don't have to like pirates, but you definitely shouldn't like the bigger publishers. To anyone who stands up for Electronic Arts or Activisision in these matters I ask, "Do you really think they would do the same for you? Do you really think that pirates or used game retailers are to blame for the high prices of games, the online passes and the excessive and overpriced DLC? If the publishers removed those entities tomorrow night do you think anything would change? Do you honestly believe they'd lower prices?"

[Akuam4n]

My thoughts on it are a tad simplistic, but oh well.

 

I think, the "hardcore" gamers who pirate, most of them have the best intentions at heart. If I hear a demo does not do a game justice, or a game does not even have one, chances are I'll go pirate it, and I enjoy it, I'll actually buy it. If not, then they have not lost nor gained anything. I am hoping the same goes for a good portion of gamers.

 

I know some people pirate just to pirate, and to be cheap, but that's just the way it works. Just like how some people torrent things they legally can, and it's nice. While others steal everything under the goddamn sun.

 

I am not a big PC gamer, I usually try and buy something on a console, but I think publishers are doing it wrong. The restrictive DRM, and console ports are unacceptable. The PC is a different beast; games can stay alive on it for a decade. They really should be polishing and I would even say giving more content to the PC port (ugh) of the game. A game on the PC has to raise the bar on so many levels, for it to even be successful. I don't think they get that yet. Some do, but a lot don't. Unlike on consoles, Pc gamers can rip your game apart, show it's flaws bit by bit easily, and get it for fucking free if they feel ripped off. The gamers have most of the power here, but they kinda don't use it (I lol at the MW2 boycott).

 

I love Steam however; if not for the sales and nice DRM and ease of use; it brought Mac gaming back in so to speak. I am really hoping it gets some more boosts.

 

I'm slowly liking my PC more and more though. I might one day switch over.

[Outkastprince]

You don't have to like pirates, but you definitely shouldn't like the bigger publishers. To anyone who stands up for Electronic Arts or Activisision in these matters I ask, "Do you really think they would do the same for you? Do you really think that pirates or used game retailers are to blame for the high prices of games, the online passes and the excessive and overpriced DLC? If the publishers removed those entities tomorrow night do you think anything would change? Do you honestly believe they'd lower prices?"

How about Sony, Apple and auto vehicles? Everyone's trying to get their money, screw the customer one way or another, doesn't mean we should steal a car because we're angry at the way they do business. If you don't like it, go find another company that does satisfies you. I mean really, Steam gives you the lowest prices online, PC gamers have options and it doesn't required stealing, not to mention used games for consoles users. We have options.

[TheForgetfulBrain]

I've never tried pirating console games (a tiny bit of SNES etc emulation back in the day excluded), seemed to complicated.

 

PC games, about ten years ago or so I tried getting a few games my mom wouldn't let me buy (because they were 'M'), like American McGee's Alice, but that was back in the day of dial-up, and the games usually came without cut scenes. I'll tell you, beating Alice and receiving no cutscene and having no way to know how the game ended SUCKED.

 

These days, I've downloaded a few games, but have ended up buying most of them.

 

Honestly, when you've got Steam selling games for super cheap on their sales, I'd rather buy them off Steam than worry about torrents or viruses etc.

[Johnny]

Pirating is stealing.

People who claim piracy is stealing should not be allowed to enter into any discussion of any sort ever. Why is this, you ask?

Well, because you are basing your whole argument on a FACTUAL ERROR. Why the hell would you do that? You are making yourself look like an idiot while contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand.

Piracy is the act of making a copy of a product. It does not remove the original product. Hence, logically not stealing.

Furthermore, it is not legally considered stealing either. It is considered copyright infringement.

So, oppose piracy if you want to, but please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, base that on some sort of rational argument, not a plain lie.

[Outkastprince]

It's a copy, so it's not stealing. You're trying to justify stealing, and I ain't buying it. You got your opinion, I got mines. People like you aren't worth arguing with, same here, we aren't going to changed our views.

[Mr. GOH!]

I used to pirate games when I was a poor undergrad student, but I haven't pirated anything in years. Well, except a copy of The Witcher because I can no longer activate my legitimately downloaded copy because Atari is fucking retarded so fuck them in the ear. Then again, I just applied a crack, which is legal to do to; you can circumvent DRM to use copyrighted material you have the license to use (this is somewhat simplified, but I know folk 'round these parts don't much cotton to lawyer-talk).

 

I'm somewhat sympathetic to pirates because damn, games are fucking expensive and companies who don't release demos are assholes. Well, that and I doubt many pirates would actually buy the games they pirate if piracy somehow became magically impossible. On the other hand, it is illegal and the folks who make a game should be compensated for it. I'm not quite convinced piracy is theft because no one is deprived of the use of a game due to one downloading it, though I understand the moral outrage of anti-piracy advocates.

[Cyber Rat]

It's a copy, so it's not stealing. You're trying to justify stealing, and I ain't buying it. You got your opinion, I got mines. People like you aren't worth arguing with, same here, we aren't going to changed our views.

 

[Outkastprince]

My opinion is right! and I can't choke Johnny, we're behind PCs and he might be a 7 foot man holding intense rage inside.

[Akuam4n]

Pirating is stealing.

People who claim piracy is stealing should not be allowed to enter into any discussion of any sort ever. Why is this, you ask?

Well, because you are basing your whole argument on a FACTUAL ERROR. Why the hell would you do that? You are making yourself look like an idiot while contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand.

Piracy is the act of making a copy of a product. It does not remove the original product. Hence, logically not stealing.

Furthermore, it is not legally considered stealing either. It is considered copyright infringement.

So, oppose piracy if you want to, but please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, base that on some sort of rational argument, not a plain lie.

Yes, you are just making a copy, but you do not own that copy, so therefore you are effectively stealing the copy you just made. Plus, wither or not you are actually stealing something you pirate is not the issue, the issue is you didn't pay for it, and you are supposed to to be able to experience it. That's such a lame reason to try and legitimize piracy it's ridiculous.

 

Useless post is useless.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Iamaquaman

[Mr. GOH!]

I see this discussion is evolving into a thoughtful debate about the philosophical underpinnings and ramifications of various theories of property.

 

Oh, fuck, wait, no it's not. It's turning into righteous indignation and an unwillingness to explore the other person's viewpoint. I always get that confused with thoughtful debate.

[Bouchart]

I've pirated games before, basically PS1 and earlier games. I don't do that too often. And yes, it is theft.

[HotChops]

You don't have to like pirates, but you definitely shouldn't like the bigger publishers. To anyone who stands up for Electronic Arts or Activisision in these matters I ask, "Do you really think they would do the same for you? Do you really think that pirates or used game retailers are to blame for the high prices of games, the online passes and the excessive and overpriced DLC? If the publishers removed those entities tomorrow night do you think anything would change? Do you honestly believe they'd lower prices?"

How about Sony, Apple and auto vehicles? Everyone's trying to get their money, screw the customer one way or another, doesn't mean we should steal a car because we're angry at the way they do business. If you don't like it, go find another company that does satisfies you. I mean really, Steam gives you the lowest prices online, PC gamers have options and it doesn't required stealing, not to mention used games for consoles users. We have options.

 

You've mixed up the topics. I didn't say that dissatisfied consumers should steal, pirate, copy or whatever anything. I simply said that big publishers possess too much power.

 

I don't want to go into it too much here b/c I think it's a separate topic, but I don't think there are a lot of options out there for the consumer. Right now, I think the free market system is broken. Again, I'm not saying that pirating is right. I'm saying that I think there are bigger problems and more culpable parties who need to be focused on. For example, right now on this esteemed board we have a topic about piracy. What we do not have is a thread about the corrupted role of big publishers, which is IMO a far greater threat to the game industry right now. I'd like to make that thread, but I'm afraid doing so right now would just drag the piracy debate into it. So, I probably will post it later...maybe

[Outkastprince]

Ah, you're right about that Hot chops. You should still make the topic, I suck at debates XD but I do enjoy reading threads like these and seeing what people have to say about certain issues.

[Johnny]

You're trying to justify stealing, and I ain't buying it.

No, I'm trying to explain to you that piracy is not theft. I am not trying to justify piracy - my opinions on piracy itself have very little to do with wether it is stealing or not.

 

Yes, you are just making a copy, but you do not own that copy, so therefore you are effectively stealing the copy you just made. Plus, wither or not you are actually stealing something you pirate is not the issue, the issue is you didn't pay for it, and you are supposed to to be able to experience it. That's such a lame reason to try and legitimize piracy it's ridiculous.

Useless post is useless.

 

This would all be halfway relevant if my post was anything about the moral right/wrong about piracy.

As it stands, my post was about the definition of piracy and how it is certainly not stealing.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Johnny

[deanb]

Well my piracy started back in college. We used programs like 3DMax, Photoshop, Flash, etc. And they cost a few thousand to buy. And thus our tutor introduced us to the concept you could pirate things. We'd had a dodgy cvopy of Office before then that my step-dad had brought from a work colleague, but the concept that you could do that stuff yourself hadn't crossed your mind.

So yeah software piracy I have a semi-long history of, and still do it to this day since I'm currently using ...damn I priced this up a couple months back... something like £30,000 worth of software at the moment.

 

VG piracy started back with Spore. At that time I was still young n naive. I followed the trailers n stories n reviews(ish). It sounded a great game. It wasn't. Oh and it took me a while to find that out since due to the SecureROM use on it I couldn't play it for half a week. Since then I've been somewhat sceptical, so pretty much only get games if I can play a demo beforehand or buy it dirt cheap. If there's no official demo, then the torrents provide.

Now since my stance for most of these games are sceptical enough I'm most likely not going to buy it a publisher can only stand to gain from me pirating it. Because after pirating it I may actually pick it up.

 

So games I've bought after pirating:

Fallout 3 (Loved oblivion, wasn't keen it'd translate to post-apocalypse shooter)

Fallout New Vegas (I thought it was going to be exactly like 3 just new place. Turns out not)

Last Remnant (ran like shit on 360, this was more a benchmark)

Sins of a Solar Empire

Dragon Age Origins

Borderlands

Majesty 2

 

Games I pirated then never picked up:

Elemental War of Magic. So bad I won't even pirate the improved version

Medal of Honor: This I feel bad about cos I actually completed the SP. But in like 6 hours so not too bad feeling.

Far Cry 2: I've mentioned this one on here already I think. But yeah it was actually near great. But some oh so annoying aspects.

Trine - pretty shitty on PC. Was before I got my pad though.

Sims 3 -This was more me just not been into the game anymore. 1 was great though at the time.

All my PSP games. Which most are PSX games anyway, which I already own so fuck if I'm buying them again.

 

Oh and the old fashioned CD sharing:

HOMM V

Witcher

Own both.

 

Now I buy a shit ton games on PC, substantially less on PS3 (the console you can't pirate on and has games that cost £40 a pop)

Because I am able to pirate and demo a game I am therefore able to be confident in making a purchasing decision. So the publisher gets my money. Alternative for them is to make a demo. Which most of these are RPGs, which are kinda demo free.

I understand there are people out there that wholesale pirate, get every game that hits the torrents. But tbh those people mean nothing. They are the ones that mostly skew the charts n such anyway because most of the time they won't want to play them, they'll just have RSS feed hooked up and let it download every game that comes out.

 

Oh btw most of the time when cracking down on pirates it's not the little small scale guys, it's the folks who grab the big games pre-release n start burning them to discs n selling them on. Thats when the publishers are losing sales because it's someone willing to buy a copy, but they're not buying a legal copy. However that kind of stuff is getting smaller n smaller these days since most folks know how to do it themselves.

 

 

As for the whole Piracy is stealing:

Lets lay this out straight here and now, especially since we have like umpteen lawyers in this place:

Piracy/copyright infringement is not theft. Which is why there are two separate laws for them.

You can have the opinion that you think piracy is wrong, but not an opinion that it is theft.

 

btw isn't sceptical spelt with a K?

 

edit: @Hotchops: I had a topic on the last place called "The Games Industry as gone to shit" Which covered similar topics like all games costing $60 and the publishers having too much power compared to days of old. I could remake it here. I kind of enjoyed it. Even if the name was a bit too inflammatory

[Akuam4n]

btw isn't sceptical spelt with a K?

Skeptical. The more you knowwwww-

 

Also, I've pirated Adobe CS3 before, and a few other programs, they were too expensive for a poor college student like me. I felt no remorse in since I was making no money off what I was making.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Iamaquaman

[deanb]

Well from what we'd been told most of those companies don't mind because when you go and work in the business that's what you end up using. And the company will be buying the legit stuff. They're well awarre the average home owner won't be able to pay. But it also gets the name out here. The cover of a magazine is photoshopped, not paintshop pro'd or gimped.

 

As for skeptical I was sure it was a K but chrome carried on trying to correct me. Unless it's a US/UK thing and I'm trying to use a US spelling.