Faiblesse Des Sens Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I just mentioned that I was pirating smartphone apps. =p Though I'll gladly buy swift key once I have a job again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 If I can contribute once more, the whole "1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale" only applies in the traditional business model. Realistically, it's not accurate and I would assume most companies that meddle in electronic media know that there are pirates and they love the concept of "free." It's almost like trying to keep something secret or secure now; there's always going to be someone out there. That's why I think the strategy most taken is to prevent an increase of piracy. You'd be lying through your teeth, or clueless, if you believed you could prevent all piracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 You bring up a good point about "what things look like on paper or what they have to tell the public" vs "what a company actually is thinking." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Wow. This thread has spawned three or four pages since the last time I viewed it. I haven't fully re-read the thread, but I think it is worth mentioning that in many of these cases, arguments aren't limited to an equation so simple as "1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale." Videogame companies like Blizzard and Activision can afford to pay expert witnesses to give testimony about how much distribution took place, how much of that distribution represents a loss in sales, and how much damage the act caused for their business or product image (which can affect sales in its own way, too). The equation is far more complex than "1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale", and courts meticulously analyze many different factors before awarding such large money judgements. I've been following a lot of the Blizzard cases, and I've yet to disagree with any of the rationale used in them. Some of the issues and rationale in there can even be over my head at times. The courts aren't stupid, and they aren't just handing out these judgements like candy... Wait, which Blizzard cases? Because the one I'm familiar with is Blizzard v. bnetd, about which there was some controversy. It also was about reverse-engineered server software, so perhaps you're talking about cases which are more on-point for the whole "how many sales are lost to piracy" question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Lawnchair Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 all i want to say is, the ps3 has finally been hacked to the point of PSP/dreamcast level home brew. dont need to buy any modchip/usb dongle! im a huge supporter of modchips. look how XBMC turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slatz_grobnik Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Specifically putting aside questions of morality/legality, pirating games is like drinking cough syrup to get high. If you're, say, 12, or live in a dry county in Backwater, GA, fine. You don't need to condone it to understand it. But if you're otherwise a normal adult, there's a certain lack of maturity, or more specifically a lack of willingness to go accept the social placements of the remainder of society. And the worst part are the rationalizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 What if there's no demo available, the game is hard to find, etc? I think you're looking at this a bit too black and white even from a perspective of being an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Wait, which Blizzard cases? Because the one I'm familiar with is Blizzard v. bnetd, about which there was some controversy. It also was about reverse-engineered server software, so perhaps you're talking about cases which are more on-point for the whole "how many sales are lost to piracy" question. I was thinking of Blizzard and "Starcrack" specifically (Blizzard Entertainment Inc v. Justin Marshall et al). Starcrack emulated Battle.net's servers so that people with pirated copies of StarCraft 2 could play the multiplayer before the game was officially out in stores. The interesting thing about many Blizzard cases is that reverse-engineering the server software is only one issue (and could still relate to piracy with contributory or vicarious infringement). Blizzard's reliance on the DMCA has also lead to further interpretations of cases that are very relevant to copyright law and piracy, like MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc. and Sun Microsystems, Inc. v. Microsoft Corporation. I didn't realize that the Starcrack case has had any decisions handed down yet. What was the court's relevant analysis? I'm interested in lost sales calculations made by the trial court, particularly. And, yup, the holdings MAI Systems and Sun v. Microsoft are modified by the subsequent adoption of the DMCA. I think it's par for the course to mention them in briefs and distinguish them heavily/ assert they still hold, depending on what side is writing the brief. I remember MAI Systems as being a hoary old, but occasionally problematic, chestnut even when I took Copyright Law a couple years ago. The DMCA anticircumvention provision should be headed to SCOTUS sometime in the next few terms (if it isn't already); my sense is that there is a split in circuits on how it should be interpreted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 http://www.escapistm...its/2653-Piracy Extra Credits touches on Piracy. I was watching and thinking "Ah, but he's not mentioned Demos yet" then he did and just suggested writing a letter. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Which is effective, though I'm sure only if everyone adopts that mentality. If Sucker Punch changed the design of Cole because of the vocal outrage (was it a majority?), I'm sure a company would greatly consider offering demos for their games if they received thousands of letters/emails saying: "Look, I'm not going to take the risk in purchasing Game X because there is currently no demo. There have been a lot of mixed reviews published both in print and online. What? Do you want me to pirate the game?" Agree 100% with the Extra Creditz crew, though at times their advice is more so wishful thinking, which they're more than aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 We can agrue morally whether it is or not really 'stealing' but at the end of the day legally it is stealing isn't it? legit question, laws pretty much classify it as stealing don't they? Its easy to say you disagree with piracy of course, but we've all done it at one point in our lives. I don't agree with piracy, I have done it before, I have an R4 for DS to test out a few America only games, but I do buy games I enjoy and I've just got my own PC and maybe I will pirate some games eventually, but I haven't yet and I think we all like to reward the devs at the end of the day. Besides gaming is NOT a right. At the end of the day The demo arguement though. God damn it, why can't devs just release PC demos when they release console demos?? Look at Brink One last thing. The whole Geohot thing with the PS3 and all these fanboys saying he should go to jail is laughable. I guess they've never pirated games for the DS, PSP, PC, Wii or 360 before and are completely against homebrew on those consoles....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurial Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) There's a big difference between pirating a few games here and there and opening the floodgates. Saying that all people who want Geohotz in jail are pirates is like saying if someone hates another person and they happen to be of a different race they're racist. Edited January 24, 2011 by Hakidia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I still remember my first year of college taking an IT class. It was the second day and the instructor asked us how many illegal/pirated copies of music and movies we each possessed. I counted the few music files I had, mainly video game music, and came up with a small two digit number. Everyone else in the class was either in the hundreds or thousands. Dude who served overseas in the Middle East had came back home with tons of cheap pirated DVDs. I was small-time compared to everyone else, but the instructor's point stood: no matter the number, practically everyone has done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintage Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 i do it, and i wont stop doing it. i don't care if it's stealing or not moral or immoral, i don't have the cash to blow huge money on games. if i like it then ill buy it, if i deem the money is worth it. but if it doesn't have MP then forget it. I'm downloading your shit and your not getting a penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 We can agrue morally whether it is or not really 'stealing' but at the end of the day legally it is stealing isn't it? legit question, laws pretty much classify it as stealing don't they? Legally it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. It is illegal though, which I think might have really been your point anyway. My issue with the "write a letter" thing is this: If I pirate a game to demo it, it's because I'm considering buying it. If I enjoy it enough, then I will buy it. If I just write the dev a letter though, that means I'm not buying the game, and they're not getting a sale from me. Honestly, I imagine devs and publishers would prefer that I pirate the game and then buy it, than that I write them a letter and not buy it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 My issue with the "write a letter" thing is this: If I pirate a game to demo it, it's because I'm considering buying it. If I enjoy it enough, then I will buy it. If I just write the dev a letter though, that means I'm not buying the game, and they're not getting a sale from me. Honestly, I imagine devs and publishers would prefer that I pirate the game and then buy it, than that I write them a letter and not buy it at all. That's what you would do, but I don't imagine everyone who pirates to demo a game is going to stick to that criteria. After all, you already are in possession of the game, what's stopping anyone from keeping it for free? Like, what if the game isn't as good as someone thought, but they kept playing it to finished it. That's where morality comes into play. You may get rid of the game yourself, but someone who is constantly coming up with excuses to play a game for free could easily brush it off and keep playing. Heck, where do you stop in your demoing of a game? I'm not trying to point fingers or belittle anyone, but the point of the letter is to create action. We could carry on with pirating to demo a game, but you have to admit its an unorthodox method that could be thrown out if developers would simply offer a real demo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 As n when I have time I am going to have a looksy at the piracy rate on games with demos and games without. See if it comes up with anything. An issue with the letter thing as well is many developers just brush off the idea of making a demo. Some because the games so shitty it'd turn off potential customers, some because they feel they can't make a demo (like the Fallout games where they could of easily put up a closed section), and for many making a demo is more hard work n cash to do than slapping on some DRM. If you equate a demo with piracy prevention then they end up pricing up it's pros n cons against other piracy prevention, and while a demo may or may not get results (even for DRM it's not that measurable), they do know DRM is just easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) True it's probably more effort than worth, just what I like about the letter idea, again, is it's taking action. It's not perfect, and like I said it would probably only work if a lot of people did it. It was probably something that came off the top of the Extra Credits' crew heads. The point they wanted to make was that something could be done about the process. As gamers we do have power in the industry; reason for me bringing up the topic of Cole's new look in Infamous 2. I find that the majority of complaints simply end up in a bubble where no chance of change will occur and the end result is that both parties end up losing. Perhaps developers do rely on people to pirate the game to demo it to save themselves money. Just, at the same time, it's an imperfect system that would appear to exist as an unwritten process of game development and sales. Edited January 24, 2011 by Atomsk88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I personally like the idea of timed demos. You have x amount of time to do whatever you want. Just Cause 2 had that. Only thing that limited you were the map size. That made me buy the full game when I saw it on sale on Steam, all from the memory of it when I tried it on the PS3 demo. Timed demos can work with a bunch of games I think. The devs don't have to do anything special besides cutting the size of the demo download to only include places that a person can get to in the demo time. It leaves a better taste in my mouth than a demo that all of a suddenly ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 You may get rid of the game yourself, but someone who is constantly coming up with excuses to play a game for free could easily brush it off and keep playing. Heck, where do you stop in your demoing of a game? Well and I could definitely see pirating it to demo it, deciding it's not worth the money, but still finishing the game anyway. Maybe it's something I'd buy for $15 but they're charging $50. That's another thing I took issue with in the video: they listed a bunch of flaws with a game that might make someone not buy it, and then said "but if you pirate it and play it, obviously it's worth playing despite the flaws." Their logic their is flawed. For one thing, there's a cost consideration that enters into it: sure, it may be worth playing if it's free, that doesn't mean it's worth paying money for, or paying more than a couple dollars for. I pirate less than just about any PC gamer I know, so don't take this as justifying my own behavior, but I do subscribe to the philosophy that if I wasn't going to buy it anyway then I haven't hurt the developer by pirating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Rat Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 My issue with the "write a letter" thing is this: If I pirate a game to demo it, it's because I'm considering buying it. If I enjoy it enough, then I will buy it. If I just write the dev a letter though, that means I'm not buying the game, and they're not getting a sale from me. Honestly, I imagine devs and publishers would prefer that I pirate the game and then buy it, than that I write them a letter and not buy it at all. That's what you would do, but I don't imagine everyone who pirates to demo a game is going to stick to that criteria. After all, you already are in possession of the game, what's stopping anyone from keeping it for free? Like, what if the game isn't as good as someone thought, but they kept playing it to finished it. That's where morality comes into play. You may get rid of the game yourself, but someone who is constantly coming up with excuses to play a game for free could easily brush it off and keep playing. Heck, where do you stop in your demoing of a game? I'm not trying to point fingers or belittle anyone, but the point of the letter is to create action. We could carry on with pirating to demo a game, but you have to admit its an unorthodox method that could be thrown out if developers would simply offer a real demo. I don't believe morality ever comes into play here. Copyright infringement is not theft, it is a law. Breaking laws doesn't mean you're breaking any universal moral codes. That's another thing I took issue with in the video: they listed a bunch of flaws with a game that might make someone not buy it, and then said "but if you pirate it and play it, obviously it's worth playing despite the flaws." Their logic their is flawed. For one thing, there's a cost consideration that enters into it: sure, it may be worth playing if it's free, that doesn't mean it's worth paying money for, or paying more than a couple dollars for. Yea, that was my only issue as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Outside of what has already been mentioned by Cyber and Ethan, I have one single complaint about the Extra Credits episode. Yes, if you can afford a PC or an xbox or whatever you can probably afford one or two games. But that doesn't mean that you can afford all the games you're pirating. It's not that black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I've scanned through most of this thread so here's my collected thoughts... Obviously, there's two arguments here, one of legality and one of morality. I think we pretty much all agree that piracy is illegal, beyond legitimate reasons like making a genuine backup. There are some grey areas, e.g. If I own a game in one format is it ok to pirate it in another format or emulate it on another platform? Valve offering Portal 2 free on PC to PS3 gamers muddies those waters nicely, it would seem that Valve's take is that you own a copy of the software it should work everywhere (a concept that EA is also driving towards, but that's another story). Morally it's a tougher issue. Copyright infringement is tantamount to stealing. It's not defined as stealing by law as the copyright holder has not had anything taken from them, there is no attempt to "permanently deprive", however, the pirate has received something from the copyright holder and deprived them of a potential sale. While illegal, some pirates do break the law in what most would consider a morally acceptable manner. Pirating to demo, pirating to have an additional DRM free version of software they legitimately own. However, even amongst these, take our own Dean by way of example have occasional lapses where they will play through the single player of MoH and then not buy the game because they are done with it. The rest of the excuses are pretty lame. As follows: "Games are expensive": Holidays are expensive. You have a number of recourses beyond piracy. You could save up for a holiday you really want, you can shop around for cheap deals, you can go on fewer holidays and only go on the ones that you really want to, or you can work hard and get a pay rise. You are not entitled to have luxurious holidays just because you want them. Same goes for games. You are not entitled to play every game you think you might enjoy just because it exists. "I tried it, completed it and I didn't enjoy it.": If I got to a theme park, I don't sneak in spend the whole day there, go on all the rides and then decide when I leave if I feel like paying. I either pay to go in or I don't go. "I wouldn't have bought it anyway.": Then don't play it. If it is not worth your money then it shouldn't be worth your time. I'm never going to buy Justin Bieber's album, I'm certainly not going to pirate a copy to confirm that it is as awful as I think it probably is. "I only pirate games that are short or I think I won't like.": If you don't think it is worth the money then don't play it, wait for it to drop in price and then pick it up in a bargain bin. If you think that spending £25 for 4 hours of entertainment is a bad deal then wait till it drops to bang:buck ratio that you are satisfied with. Bottom line, there are loads of reasons, excuses, justifications and what have you for piracy, they all prove one thing, that on some level you accept that what you're doing is, in some way, wrong. Otherwise why try to justify it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurial Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 To make yourself feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 And you need to feel better because piracy makes you feel bad because you know it is wrong. That there is some of that logic that D-K likes so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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