Piracy

[TheMightyEthan]

I mean it's worth paying some amount for, even if it means waiting for it to be 90% off. I didn't mean it's worth paying full price for.

 

@FDS: Demoing is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm not going to say that's the only thing I would consider fair use.

 

Actually, while writing that I thought of another one I'm okay with: pirating a game that is not available in your territory, and will not be for the foreseeable future. Basically I'm only against pirating things that developers/publishers are actually willing to sell to you.

[Vecha]

I've only pirated games I couldn't purchase anymore...with places like GOG, and every now and again STEAM, I've pirated less and less.

 

That letter from Mediacom also persuaded me from pirating

[Waldorf and Statler]

I don't think I've ever pirated a game. Movies and music? Yes. But never a game. Besides when I was a kid and somebody put a chip in my PS1 so I could play pirated games. But I purchased said pirate games, from fine establishments with brands such as "Naikee" and "Reabuk".

[Thursday Next]

Do you think the developers would be pissed off that someone is enjoying their game? Ideally, that is why developers make games, for themselves and others and not for money. The reality of course, is far different.

 

What planet are you from? I think developers would be extremely pissed if you told them "Hi I didn't pay a cent for that game you spent months coding, but it was a total blast. Thanks!" Developers make games to make money. That they enjoy what they make to make money is neither here nor there. Just because you want people to like the thing that you made doesn't mean that you don't want to be paid for it. Chefs want to make good food, lawyers want to write good contracts. Yes, it is nice when people say they like what you made, but nice words don't put food on the table.

 

@Johnny Also, it's not about Ethan having more money. It's about him having patience. If there is something you cannot afford, then I think you should wait until you can afford it. Your reward for paying the higher price is that you get the game sooner. Getting the game on day one illegitimately and then buying it when it gets cheap enough is having your cake and eating it.

[Johnny]

And what's so bad about that exactly?

[Thursday Next]

I think it is the right thing to do to wait until you can afford something, at that point you pay for it and you receive it . Therefore I think that taking, or using, or copying something without permission and then paying when you feel like it is wrong. This is not a furniture sale where you can pick it up now and pay nothing till next year. That's not the deal you are offered.

 

We've had this discussion before. I think your attitude is childish and entitled in the most negative ways. You want something now, and since you can take it now, you will take it now (and maybe buy it at some later point assuming you can't conjure a reason not to buy it), content creator's wishes be damned. You act like the mere existence of an entertainment work gives you a moral right to consume it which is something that I fundamentally disagree with. But like I said, this is an old conversation and not one on which either of us are likely to change stance.

[TheMightyEthan]

"Wherein we argue forever."

[Thursday Next]

Just so.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

What planet are you from? I think developers would be extremely pissed if you told them "Hi I didn't pay a cent for that game you spent months coding, but it was a total blast. Thanks!" Developers make games to make money. That they enjoy what they make to make money is neither here nor there. Just because you want people to like the thing that you made doesn't mean that you don't want to be paid for it. Chefs want to make good food, lawyers want to write good contracts. Yes, it is nice when people say they like what you made, but nice words don't put food on the table.

 

Is money the only way to show that you appreciate someone's work? Most musicians don't care about piracy because they want people to enjoy the music. You don't think there are any game developers out there who are the same? We've seen a few indie titles releases that make versions just for pirates that aren't all that different except for a message or two about buying the game or other small tweaks. Obviously, they want someone to buy the game, but who in their right mind would get mad because someone greatly enjoys the piece of art that you made?

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

FDS makes a good point. If I'm talking to someone from Valve telling him how much I loved the first Half-Life, and I tell him I played it by borrowing the discs from a friend in high school, is that going to lessen his satisfaction in having produced something that someone loved? I understand there are limitations on this (if no one paid for games, they wouldn't get made), but on the individual level it's something to think about.

[Johnny]

Directed at Thursday Next:

My question was directed at the "having your cake and eating it." I was in a bit of a hurry as I posted, and if I caused any confusion, I apologize.

 

Now here's why I asked:

Firstly, I was asking because I was genuinely curious about the reasoning.

From where I'm standing, every technological advancement is the realization of the ability to in a certain context have your cake and eat it too. I am not sure why that's a bad thing. That you're using that as an argument against piracy is kind of baffling to me.

Another reason why it's baffling is that it doesn't describe piracy, or my attitude to it, in any stretch. Having your cake and eating it too is generally used to referr to something which can't happen. Like eating your cake and still having it. There is nothing impossible about piracy, and therefore I don't see how the idiom is relevant.

 

In regards to you repeatedly calling my attitude childish: How can you with a straight face call someone else childish when you're the one resorting to namecalling in response to a simple question?

 

And here you disappoint me again, Thursday. It is not appreciated when you put words in my mouth. I am not the one talking about rights. It would not be correct to say I think I have any particular moral right to pirate. I do not view the world in those terms. To say that I lack respect for the system would be correct though. I totally do. I think it's broken and I think the people in whose interests it is to come up with a system that clashes less with the modern reality of the world (that of high-speed internet, specifically), aren't really doing that. Well, half-true. Some people are doing that (hi Steam, gog.com) and it's part of why I've had a much easier time buying games in recent years. I have pretty much stopped pirating because I can actually afford games now. Stuff like that really helps. Believe it or not, I actually want the games industry to prosper as well, and I want to pay for games I consider good for that reason.

 

Unless you just call me a liar and assume villainy as has so frequently been done in the past. That's not helping. When game companies (or people working for such companies) repeatedly make me out as a villain when trying to approach the subject for discussion, that's just putting me off buying your games in the future. You're just making more enemies and I know quite a few people who just straight-up won't pay for games from certain companies who have quite vocally blamed pirates for everything wrong with the industry. Personally, though I did at one point entertain the thought, I won't stoop to that level because I genuinely believe there are worthwhile people inside every company, despite how little I might think of the ones I have spoken to.

 

 

Though to be honest none of that above was the most offensive thing you said.

 

(and maybe buy it at some later point assuming you can't conjure a reason not to buy it)

 

 

Is that really what you think? That I don't care? If all I was interested in was to pirate games and not support the game creators, I would not be here discussing this. I'd just be on my merry way. Do you have any idea how easy that would be? It fucking pains me every time I post in here because I know that no matter what my intentions are I'll get some reply from some knight in shining armor, ready to drag my name through the dirt because he can't face the possibility that someone who's pirated games may give a shit. I get called a thief, a liar, everything in between.

So why do I continue to post? Because I care. Because I genuinely care and I genuinely want to discuss the things I care about. I see it as my duty - all of ours as human beings - to share knowledge, reasoning, perspectives. For all of our sakes. So we can all walk away with a better understanding of the world and of our fellow humans. By posting shit like the above quote, you discourage such discourse and thereby poison all of this. And you dare talk about villainy.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

FDS makes a good point. If I'm talking to someone from Valve telling him how much I loved the first Half-Life, and I tell him I played it by borrowing the discs from a friend in high school, is that going to lessen his satisfaction in having produced something that someone loved? I understand there are limitations on this (if no one paid for games, they wouldn't get made), but on the individual level it's something to think about.

 

What about Fallout: New Vegas? They're not getting shit from Bethesda because they didn't get an 85 on metacritic. I'm pretty sure that a fan telling them they loved the game is all they're going to get.

[Johnny]

I'm not completely sure what the deal with New Vegas is. Honestly it would be very enlightening to have some actual developers comment (in detail) on when it gains them the most to have their games purchased (though of course, I'm pretty sure publishers don't want them talking too much about that...)

[Thursday Next]

@Johnny:

 

Having your cake and eating it works great for you. Paying the full price of the games you play when you play them works great for the people who make games. That's why I think having having your cake and eating it (playing when you want and paying when you want) is a "bad thing", because I'm not just thinking about how it affects you. I'm thinking about how it affects other people. s such I feel that your attitude is selfish.

 

I didn't name call. I said your attitude towards acquiring games illegitimately because you lack the patience to wait for a price drop is childish.

 

If you don't think you have a right (a moral not a legal right) to take the games without permission then why do you do it? Do you really act counter to your own morals? Do you think "I shouldn't do this, but I will anyway"? I believe that just because you can do something does not mean that you should. I could pirate every game, piece of music and film I wanted to watch, but I don't, largely because I can't abide hypocrisy.

 

I'm genuinely pleased that you are cutting down on the amount you pirate. I hope there will come a time when you don't feel the need to pirate at all, either due to an improvement in your personal financial situation, or the decreasing cost of gaming. I'm glad that you want to support the industry and feel as passionately about it as I do.

 

As for my last and most egregious comment, you have done exactly that in the past. http://forum.pressxordie.com/topic/425-piracy/page__st__820#entry70245 You pirated and played the Witcher 2, enjoyed it (eventually), planned to purchase it, and then when an opportunity emerged took a moral stand that conveniently excused you from paying up. All of this is fact.

 

As for putting words in people's mouths, I did not call you a liar or a villain. I don't even know where you pulled the word villain from. I did not say that I don't think you care. As your primary form of entertainment, I'm sure you do care about games. What I did say is that I disagree with your views on your rights (moral ones) to access content just because you can.

 

You seem to believe that because piracy is possible that there is no reason not to do it. I feel that when someone who creates something asks me not to use it without their permission that alone is enough reason not to do so.

[Johnny]

Having your cake and eating it works great for you. Paying the full price of the games you play when you play them works great for the people who make games. That's why I think having having your cake and eating it (playing when you want and paying when you want) is a "bad thing", because I'm not just thinking about how it affects you. I'm thinking about how it affects other people. s such I feel that your attitude is selfish.

 

My attitude of pirating to demo and pirating games I could not buy anyway. The first of those, I would argue is good for the industry because it lets consumers buy the products they actually like instead of guessing based on trailers. Which in turn assigns more money to good games rather than games with expensive marketing budgets.

The second of those... Well, we've had that discussion before but we both know I don't think it's harmful.

So, please, don't act like I'm doing these things because I just care about myself.

 

 

I didn't name call. I said your attitude towards acquiring games illegitimately because you lack the patience to wait for a price drop is childish.

 

Splitting hairs at best. If I do something stupid/childish/immature/etc. I am at that moment being stupid/childish/immature/etc. I do not see any difference. We are defined by our actions, and calling out someone's action is calling them out as well.

 

 

If you don't think you have a right (a moral not a legal right) to take the games without permission then why do you do it? Do you really act counter to your own morals? Do you think "I shouldn't do this, but I will anyway"? I believe that just because you can do something does not mean that you should. I could pirate every game, piece of music and film I wanted to watch, but I don't, largely because I can't abide hypocrisy.

 

I do not see the world in black and white. I do not believe I need a pure white moral right to do all the things I do. That is not how I view the world. I am fine with taking a morally grey action that does not harm people.

 

 

As for my last and most egregious comment, you have done exactly that in the past. http://forum.pressxo..._820#entry70245 You pirated and played the Witcher 2, enjoyed it (eventually), planned to purchase it, and then when an opportunity emerged took a moral stand that conveniently excused you from paying up. All of this is fact.

 

Yes, there occurred a situation wherein I saw supporting the game as less important than making sure not to give money to people who were doing what CDPR at the time was doing. That is, however, not the same as aggressively trying to find a reason to not pirate it. If I again found an interest in The Witcher 2 (alas, I no longer have any intention of playing that game), I would purchase it because they have now ceased the practices I found highly morally objectionable.

 

As for putting words in people's mouths, I did not call you a liar or a villain. I don't even know where you pulled the word villain from.

 

You have accused me of being dishonest about my piracy habits in the past, and you have called pirates in general villains.

 

Except that you are taking something without permission, which is villainy of a kind.

And this is where I got it from. Two pages back.

 

I did not say that I don't think you care. As your primary form of entertainment, I'm sure you do care about games. What I did say is that I disagree with your views on your rights (moral ones) to access content just because you can.

 

You may not have openly said it, but does not the idea that I would pirate and then come up with the slightest excuse to not buy it imply that I don't? I can't possibly both care about the industry and do just that.

 

Besides, as I detailed in my previous post, it would be to me incredibly easy to justify if I felt like doing that. Here's another one: Nearly all AAA devs are blaming me - one of their customers - for everything bad in the industry. I do not want to support companies who personally attack me. See, at this point after all the namecalling and fingerpointing, you big publisher types are all dead to my eyes anyway, and I only pay money to you in the first place because there are developers whose companies you publish, who I like and want to support. If at some point you may become as irrelevant as the record companies are now I would be happy to cast you all aside. In fact, I'd hope for this to happen.

 

Everything about the way you approach me and my attitudes seems like you don't think I care about anyone but myself. You call me selfish, childish, etc. regularly. Yet you claim to not think I don't care? This is completely inconsistent.

 

You seem to believe that because piracy is possible that there is no reason not to do it. I feel that when someone who creates something asks me not to use it without their permission that alone is enough reason not to do so.

 

If that's what you believe then truly I can not believe you have been reading my posts the past year and a half I've been part of this debate. I find certain forms of piracy okay, not just because they are possible, but because they do not harm. If you were to pirate just to get out of paying for things, that you do like and could easily afford supporting, you are a dick.

 

 

You keep implying that I'm only thinking about what affects me, which is so mind-blowingly far from the truth. I'm unemployed and I have a steam library of over 200 titles. Is that the game purchases of a pirate who just cares about himself and no-one else? I say it's not. I find it amazing that you're still unable to grasp that there are pirates who do give a shit about what happens to other people.

 

So please, when you do discuss these things, do not assume based on your preconceptions about pirates.

[Thursday Next]

As for my last and most egregious comment, you have done exactly that in the past. http://forum.pressxo..._820#entry70245 You pirated and played the Witcher 2, enjoyed it (eventually), planned to purchase it, and then when an opportunity emerged took a moral stand that conveniently excused you from paying up. All of this is fact.

 

Yes, there occurred a situation wherein I saw supporting the game as less important than making sure not to give money to people who were doing what CDPR at the time was doing. That is, however, not the same as aggressively trying to find a reason to not pirate it. If I again found an interest in The Witcher 2 (alas, I no longer have any intention of playing that game), I would purchase it because they have now ceased the practices I found highly morally objectionable.

 

So let me get this right, cos I would *hate* to misquote you.

 

1. You pirated and played The Witcher 2 and did not like it.

2. After a patch you once again played your pirated copy and did like it, completing it.

3. You had every intention to then buy it to support the developer who made the game you enjoyed.

4. The Publisher did something bad so you took a moral stand not to support them.

5. The Publisher stopped doing the bad thing, but because you no longer have any use for the game you are going back on your intention to purchase.

 

Is that about correct?

 

As for putting words in people's mouths, I did not call you a liar or a villain. I don't even know where you pulled the word villain from.

 

You have accused me of being dishonest about my piracy habits in the past, and you have called pirates in general villains.

 

Except that you are taking something without permission, which is villainy of a kind.

And this is where I got it from. Two pages back.

 

The word villainy was raised in the article being discussed at the time. I didn't choose to start using that word, some other guy did. But nice out-of-context quoting there.

 

I did not say that I don't think you care. As your primary form of entertainment, I'm sure you do care about games. What I did say is that I disagree with your views on your rights (moral ones) to access content just because you can.

 

You may not have openly said it, but does not the idea that I would pirate and then come up with the slightest excuse to not buy it imply that I don't? I can't possibly both care about the industry and do just that.

 

Besides, as I detailed in my previous post, it would be to me incredibly easy to justify if I felt like doing that. Here's another one: Nearly all AAA devs are blaming me - one of their customers - for everything bad in the industry. I do not want to support companies who personally attack me. See, at this point after all the namecalling and fingerpointing, you big publisher types are all dead to my eyes anyway, and I only pay money to you in the first place because there are developers whose companies you publish, who I like and want to support. If at some point you may become as irrelevant as the record companies are now I would be happy to cast you all aside. In fact, I'd hope for this to happen.

 

Everything about the way you approach me and my attitudes seems like you don't think I care about anyone but myself. You call me selfish, childish, etc. regularly. Yet you claim to not think I don't care? This is completely inconsistent.

 

Ahh the duality of man. I think that you do care about the Industry. I just think that you care more about getting what you want out of it, than supporting it.

 

You seem to believe that because piracy is possible that there is no reason not to do it. I feel that when someone who creates something asks me not to use it without their permission that alone is enough reason not to do so.

 

If that's what you believe then truly I can not believe you have been reading my posts the past year and a half I've been part of this debate. I find certain forms of piracy okay, not just because they are possible, but because they do not harm. If you were to pirate just to get out of paying for things, that you do like and could easily afford supporting, you are a dick.

 

 

You keep implying that I'm only thinking about what affects me, which is so mind-blowingly far from the truth. I'm unemployed and I have a steam library of over 200 titles. Is that the game purchases of a pirate who just cares about himself and no-one else? I say it's not. I find it amazing that you're still unable to grasp that there are pirates who do give a shit about what happens to other people.

 

So please, when you do discuss these things, do not assume based on your preconceptions about pirates.

 

There now follows an ad hominem rant.

 

Here's what I think about you. I think you con yourself that what you do doesn't harm anyone, that noone is losing a sale because of you. I think that plenty of sales have been lost because you don't pay for all the games you have played.

 

I think that even though you have played and enjoyed a game you will still try to wriggle out of buying it at some point.

 

I think you are self pitying and use your lack of income as a justification for piracy rather than doing what many other people on low to no income do and actually save up for or miss out on some luxuries that they can't afford instead of taking what they want.

 

I think you are childish, entitled and greedy.

 

Finally, I think that you do in fact pirate just to get out of paying for the things you like. I think if you saved your money and sacrificed some other luxuries you could easily afford the games you like and as such I totally agree with you.

 

You are a dick.

[deanb]

And I think that's enough for now,

[TheMightyEthan]

Alright, it's been a week, as long as we don't go back to the previous... discussion... I think we can reopen this topic.

 

Ubisoft says that they have a 93-95% piracy rate on PC. So they have no choice but to go F2P.

Edited August 22, 2012 by TheMightyEthan

[Alex Heat]

I honestly have to wonder if anyone who works in the industry genuinely believes that shit they say about piracy being The Worst Thing Ever™ or that one pirated copy = one lost sale.

[Strangelove]

It's stealing. You're all stealing. End of discussion.

 

 

 

No, fuck you. Bye. *farts*

[TCP]

In my opinion, while I don't believe the numbers are that huge, I don't doubt that they lose a lot of sales/profits due to pirating. This why game developers reconsider developing for the PC, or maybe take the AC3 approach and release a PC port after the console versions.

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm sure some people who could buy the games pirate instead, but you're also perpetuating the myth that piracy doesn't happen on consoles. I don't know anything about actual numbers, but I do know that pirate copies of console games are often up on torrent sites days or weeks before release, while PC games usually take a few days or weeks after release before a working cracked version is up.

[TCP]

That's probably because publishers are more likely to send out a console version for reviews/demos/etc before the game is released.

Find me some numbers but I guarantee you, pirating is much more prevalent on PC than on consoles. Except for the Wii of course.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

In my opinion, while I don't believe the numbers are that huge, I don't doubt that they lose a lot of sales/profits due to pirating. This why game developers reconsider developing for the PC, or maybe take the AC3 approach and release a PC port after the console versions.

 

I wonder how their piracy numbers were before and after their draconian DRM though. Also, you can't lose something you never had. Putting piracy into such terms makes no sense.

[Johnny]

Ubisoft says that they have a 93-95% piracy rate on PC. So they have no choice but to go F2P.

 

How this decision went down:

 

Dave: "Hey, Jack! We have a problem. 93-95% of people who play our game do so without paying for it."

Jack: "Holy shit, what can we do about this?"

Dave: "DRM?"

Jack: "Nah, we tried that and people just got angry. Also people found ways around it."

Dave: "I'm out of ideas. Let's ask Steve."

 

*Jack and Dave take a walk to Steve's office and explain the situation*

 

Steve: "Let me get this straight. Our problem is that most people who play our game never pay for it?"

Jack: "Exactly. Any ideas?"

Steve: "Mhm. We give away the game to 100% of the players."

Dave: "God damn it, Steve. That's brilliant!"

 

 

Of course, I jest. I do think that F2P can be the right decision for a lot of games, and if done well can be a positive thing for everyone (Tribes Ascend, Dota 2.)

Something about the way they are announcing this though, makes me worry that it will be some pay-to-win-ish scheme that will just end up producing shitty games. Time will tell.