Piracy

[Mercurial]

AKA artificial scarcity.

[RockyRan]

Seriously, I have nothing against piracy, but you're still taking something without paying for it. There's no sugar coating it by saying that you're making a copy and sharing it. In the end there's really no point to argue with it, though. o.O It's besides the point, really.

 

I don't think it's so much an issue of "sugar coating it" as much as it is other people trying to "piss coat it".

 

I don't want to speak for everyone, but the reason why I don't say Piracy = Theft is not because I'm trying to use that as a justification, but because there actually IS a difference in semantics. No pirate in their right mind is really going to argue that they're not "playing something that they haven't paid for", but the reason I think a lot of people call it "theft" is because we have been trained since we were little tykes that theft = bad. We have a Pavlovian reaction to the word "theft" and thus people piss-coating piracy want to use the word "theft" because it there's an "it's bad and you should feel bad" undertone built right into the word.

 

The problem is that it's factually incorrect. So as to not sound redundant, I'll just point to Hakidia's picture. There's the difference. Piracy naysayers of course object to that image because then they don't get to use the word "theft", but if it really ISN'T theft, why stick to saying it's theft? If you want to say "it's bad and you should feel bad", then say it (which Beefy does so hooray for that ). If you think it's horrible in terms of morality, great, tell us why. But insisting that it's "theft" simply because saying that word makes the point easier to get across isn't really the best way to go about doing it, especially because there's a difference between making an illegal copy and stealing a physical good from a store.

[Cyber Rat]

We have a Pavlovian reaction to the word "theft" and thus people piss-coating piracy want to use the word "theft" because it there's an "it's bad and you should feel bad" undertone built right into the word.

 

A think it's more anti-piracy propaganda which also says piracy = theft.

[deanb]

Oh yeah you know the US ICE dept thing taking down any sites it's considers to be contributing to copyright infringement (including selling fakes too). Well they've started showing anti-piracy propaganda videos as well as official seals with eagles on. Thing is a freedom of information request turns out the anti-piracy stuff now running on these sites taken down by US Govt is not made by US Govt (as implied by the ending credits) but by NBC Universal.

 

[Thursday Next]

With regard to Piracy = Theft. It depends very much on where you look at it from.

 

From an objective viewpoint, they are, by definition, different. UK law defines theft as follows (numbers added by me):

 

A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates(1) property belonging to another(2) with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.(3)

 

Taken in parts we see that in Piracy:

 

1. The material is dishonestly appropriated. You know you are not allowed it, but you took it anyway.

 

2. The property (albeit intellectual property) does belong to another.

 

3. While the intention may be to permanently retain it, you cannot deprive someone of something you have copied.

 

So Piracy is not theft.

 

If you take a side on the issue (as most people here seem to have done being either pro or anti).

 

From the Pirate's point of view, they (speaking in broad generalisations, individuals may wish to disagree) see it as a "victimless crime", they have not taken a physical item from a shop shelf, so the company will not run into a situation where it wants to sell a copy, the buyer wants to buy a copy, but a thief has taken that copy so both buyer and seller lose out.

 

From a Publisher's point of view a thief and a pirate are the same. Both have obtained the game illegally, whether it's Piracy or Theft is just semantics.

[Yantelope]

http://torrentfreak.com/france-tracks-down-18-million-file-sharers-110714/

[deanb]

Frances population is 65million. 18 million is a lot.When you're having to send out letters to nearly a third of your population surely you must realises it's a bit of a farce.

[Yantelope]

Yeah, the numbers seem a bit crazy. You'd have to take away a bunch of people who are too old or too young and in that range or people who are likely to pirate your % goes up. Also, I wonder if they have 18 million IP addresses or instances. More than one person can be using a single connection. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number would be closer to 50%.

[deanb]

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/movie-industry-bins-report-proving-pirates-are-great-consumers-20110720/

 

Though we kinda already know this. They fact they're holding back reports however was not known

[Johnny]

Not known; not surprising.

[Yantelope]

What I don't understand is why you would want to wage a war against your best customers? I'm not saying that piracy is right but it seems like bad business to harm potential sales.

[deanb]

I think because they think in a very black n white manner. Also telling your shareholders that the pirates are your best customers would kinda make them balk a bit.

 

They'd rather have everyone paying, than accept the idea that in order to have a fair few sales you need to take a few losses. It's a kind of all or nothing mentality.

[Yantelope]

not a very smart or even realistic mentality though.

[RockyRan]

not a very smart or even realistic mentality though.

 

Indeed. Kind of the reason why I dislike huge, publicly traded companies. Always lack the foresight and concepts like "you have to lose some to win more" are completely foreign to them.

[Jaylew]

Anyone who stands upon their high, righteous, and potentially delicious horse and spout claims of piracy being stealing, I have one question for you: Have you ever borrowed a friend's game, beat it (or, at least, played it until you were done), and then returned it without every spending a dime on the process?

 

If you said no, then congratulations! You have every right to cherish that stick lodged so firmly within your anus.

 

If you said yes, then here's the keys to your new apartment on Hypocrisy Street.

 

This is why piracy is not technically considered stealing and why these arguments can even exist, because though we're talking about it on a massive scale, and with strangers rather than a friend, the concept is still fundamentally the same. This is no more outright theft than making mixtapes/CDs for people is/was (does anyone still use CD players?), and due to this ambiguity the worst that pirates may be charged with is copyright infringement.

 

I'm not saying piracy in-and-of-itself is morally acceptable (depending on your personal morals), but the old adage that "Piracy is stealing" is no more than blatant fear tactics taken by the publishing industry in hopes of curbing loss of sales. Loss of sales, mind you, that come primarily from an aging industries refusal to adapt to the changing world of technology and consumer independence.

 

That being said, you bet your ass I've downloaded games. To be fair, though, it's not something I do often and only with certain games (I refuse to give Ubisoft a dime of my money, so long as they insist on that horribly restrictive-assed DRM of theirs) or, as is more often the case, DLC packs. The latter is simply due to my personal objection to how DLC is being approached these days, where they not only charge often exorbitant prices for very little true content, they plan DLC before the game is even released. Maybe it's just me, but I find it infuriating that they create content that could easily be released with the original game, but actually plan on making you spend extra money for it anyway.

 

DLC should be for content created after the fact, as a means of improving upon what they released with concepts and content developed and created later.

 

Other than that and certain TV shows, I tend to support companies I have faith in (for example, though it would have been easy and meant I could eat that week, I bought Duels of the Planeswalkers 2012 on release), even if I'm unsure of the quality of the product I'm purchasing. It's only if I'm truly wary of that particular company that I'll outright pirate a game, and even then I usually buy if it truly was a good game.

 

Oh, and I always pay for MP games. That's one way to be sure of my purchase.

 

Edit: Totally my first srsface post on here since I came back, and months behind, but I couldn't help it. I feel like I have to explain the first part SO DAMN OFTEN.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Jaylew

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

tl;dgaf

[Thursday Next]

Anyone who stands upon their high, righteous, and potentially delicious horse and spout claims of piracy being stealing, I have one question for you: Have you ever borrowed a friend's game, beat it (or, at least, played it until you were done), and then returned it without every spending a dime on the process?

 

If you said no, then congratulations! You have every right to cherish that stick lodged so firmly within your anus.

 

If you said yes, then here's the keys to your new apartment on Hypocrisy Street.

 

Except that by lending a disc to your friend you are depriving yourself of it for that period of time. So it's totally different. In essence, I sell my copy to my friend who then sells it back to me afterwards and the transaction zero-sums. That's not stealing, it's just reselling / loaning.

 

Piracy means that you both get simultaneous use of the game. It also means that it is very easy for a pirate to feel altruistic about "just sharing things" when they don't lose anything in the process. I wonder how many pirates would be so keen to "share" a game if it meant they could not use it until it was returned?

 

This is why piracy is not technically considered stealing and why these arguments can even exist, because though we're talking about it on a massive scale, and with strangers rather than a friend, the concept is still fundamentally the same. This is no more outright theft than making mixtapes/CDs for people is/was (does anyone still use CD players?), and due to this ambiguity the worst that pirates may be charged with is copyright infringement.

 

I'm not saying piracy in-and-of-itself is morally acceptable (depending on your personal morals), but the old adage that "Piracy is stealing" is no more than blatant fear tactics taken by the publishing industry in hopes of curbing loss of sales. Loss of sales, mind you, that come primarily from an aging industries refusal to adapt to the changing world of technology and consumer independence.

 

Piracy is not considered stealing because you are not "depriving" the owner of anything other than a potential sale and the law takes a dim view on potential.

 

That being said, you bet your ass I've downloaded games. To be fair, though, it's not something I do often and only with certain games (I refuse to give Ubisoft a dime of my money, so long as they insist on that horribly restrictive-assed DRM of theirs) or, as is more often the case, DLC packs. The latter is simply due to my personal objection to how DLC is being approached these days, where they not only charge often exorbitant prices for very little true content, they plan DLC before the game is even released. Maybe it's just me, but I find it infuriating that they create content that could easily be released with the original game, but actually plan on making you spend extra money for it anyway.

 

DLC should be for content created after the fact, as a means of improving upon what they released with concepts and content developed and created later.

 

1. Pirate because DLC sucks. I hope you bought the game as well and just played the pirated copy. Otherwise this isn't so much a moral stand as it is taking stuff for free with a weak excuse.

 

2. Pirate because DLC is made during game production. EA make a lot of games at the same time, do you think you should get all of them on one disc for the price of one game? DLC has to be started at the same time the game is finalling. It takes months to program, weeks to test, it then has to be submitted to first parties. That means that you could be waiting up to a year for a piece of DLC if the company waited till the "full" game was out the door. Given that EA want to keep the games with the first purchaser as long as possible they need to get some substantive DLC out within the first month or two of launch. That means it has to be in testing before the game launches and that means they have to start work on it while the game is being made.

 

Further, if you need to blend DLC in with an existing story then it has to be planned concurrently otherwise it will looked tacked on rather than an extension of the universe. Yes this means empty rooms on the Normandy that you know are for DLC characters, but would you prefer that the characters started double bunking? Or that an extra lump got glued to the Normandy for expanded living quarters?

 

Other than that and certain TV shows, I tend to support companies I have faith in (for example, though it would have been easy and meant I could eat that week, I bought Duels of the Planeswalkers 2012 on release), even if I'm unsure of the quality of the product I'm purchasing. It's only if I'm truly wary of that particular company that I'll outright pirate a game, and even then I usually buy if it truly was a good game.

 

Oh, and I always pay for MP games. That's one way to be sure of my purchase.

 

Edit: Totally my first srsface post on here since I came back, and months behind, but I couldn't help it. I feel like I have to explain the first part SO DAMN OFTEN.

[BrainHurtBoy...2]

I don't pirate much nowadays, since I have the funds to buy a few games a month, if I so wish, and it's easier to buy games off Steam than do the whole torrenting process. When I didn't have as much money, though? You bet I pirated. Yeah, it may be stealing, but when I do it, it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like there's a victim when you're stealing from a giant company like EA, so I can see why people feel like it's okay. It doesn't bother me enough to not do it occasionally, though.

 

But if you pirate indie games from small-time devs, fuck you. Money in those companies is far less common and far more likely to go directly towards feeding its employees, not paying for some bigwig's vacation to the Bahamas.

 

These points may have holes aplenty in them, but I'm tired, a little drunk, and I'm just saying what I'm thinking, so cut me some slack.

[Johnny]

Except that by lending a disc to your friend you are depriving yourself of it for that period of time. So it's totally different. In essence, I sell my copy to my friend who then sells it back to me afterwards and the transaction zero-sums. That's not stealing, it's just reselling / loaning.

 

Piracy means that you both get simultaneous use of the game. It also means that it is very easy for a pirate to feel altruistic about "just sharing things" when they don't lose anything in the process.

So is it okay if I buy a game and then don't play it at the same time as I let a friend copy it to his hard drive and download a crack?

 

I wonder how many pirates would be so keen to "share" a game if it meant they could not use it until it was returned?

I think I have five or six games lent out to various friends right now. The only reason I usually say "no" is if I don't trust that I'll get it back easily.

 

Further, if you need to blend DLC in with an existing story then it has to be planned concurrently otherwise it will looked tacked on rather than an extension of the universe. Yes this means empty rooms on the Normandy that you know are for DLC characters, but would you prefer that the characters started double bunking? Or that an extra lump got glued to the Normandy for expanded living quarters?

Honestly I think the way BioWare does DLC is pretty horrible and takes me out of the experience a lot, not to mention that the quality of their DLC usually isn't up to snuff (Shale from DA:O excluded) so I'd rather they don't do it at all.

But that's a different discussion entirely.

[deanb]

While I pirate games myself I do disagree with the "well they deserve it" type of piracy. I too find Ubisofts DRM to be pretty fucking crappy. I just don't have any of their games. Bought or pirated.

 

That said I do think the DLC stuff is shitty. DLC rarely if ever drops in price. And then you later get a GOTY edition anyway. But DLC is a whole other thread.

 

 

edit: FFFUUUU stupid opening of new windows. Meant to post this aaaggess ago.

 

Johnny I think "share" being in quotation marks is cos it's not share as in a physical copy. I think TN is getting at something else.

Though I do share games out. Me n Tom kinda take it in turns. I think it's my turn to by the new AC game. I'm unsure on UC3 though.

 

Oh just a random thought: How to reduce the chances I'll pirate your game for a spin: Make it fucking huge. It's also why I've not bought Episodes of Liberty City too.

[Thursday Next]

Except that by lending a disc to your friend you are depriving yourself of it for that period of time. So it's totally different. In essence, I sell my copy to my friend who then sells it back to me afterwards and the transaction zero-sums. That's not stealing, it's just reselling / loaning.

 

Piracy means that you both get simultaneous use of the game. It also means that it is very easy for a pirate to feel altruistic about "just sharing things" when they don't lose anything in the process.

So is it okay if I buy a game and then don't play it at the same time as I let a friend copy it to his hard drive and download a crack?

 

Not at all. I'm saying that if it could only exist on one hard drive at a time then piracy would be the same as lending a disc. That is that for as long as the person you gave it to had it available for their use, you did not have it available for your use.

 

I wonder how many pirates would be so keen to "share" a game if it meant they could not use it until it was returned?

I think I have five or six games lent out to various friends right now. The only reason I usually say "no" is if I don't trust that I'll get it back easily.

 

You seem to have missed my point. Would you be willing to "share" a game if it was going to be downloaded by a random and you had to wait till they gave it back? Pretty much the same as, would you walk into a train station and offer to lend your games to any passer-by? Seems like you wouldn't. So all this talk of "I'm just sharing games" doesn't fly with me because it's not some selfless gesture for the good of the people, it's not even helping out a mate by letting them borrow your game. If pirates could not access their games without getting them signed back to them by the downloader, I think most people would stop "sharing" games overnight, or at least they would do it on a one to one basis. Not broadcasting them.

 

Further, if you need to blend DLC in with an existing story then it has to be planned concurrently otherwise it will looked tacked on rather than an extension of the universe. Yes this means empty rooms on the Normandy that you know are for DLC characters, but would you prefer that the characters started double bunking? Or that an extra lump got glued to the Normandy for expanded living quarters?

Honestly I think the way BioWare does DLC is pretty horrible and takes me out of the experience a lot, not to mention that the quality of their DLC usually isn't up to snuff (Shale from DA:O excluded) so I'd rather they don't do it at all.

But that's a different discussion entirely.

 

Quality of DLC notwithstanding, my point is that companies don't wait till a game is released to make DLC for some very sound reasons.

[Yantelope]

I find stories like this amusing.

 

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-lawyers-rip-off-work-from-competitor-110727/

[Strangelove]

Im downloading Dragon Age 2 Legacy as we speak. Its funny.

 

That being said, im waiting for the DA2 Ultimate Edition for the PS3. Ill definitely buy it then. Thats how I justify it.

[deanb]

 

Seems fair to me.

[CorgiShinobi]

I agree with the image. Yet, the beginning I would say is subjective: "Enjoyment."

 

We've talked about piracy as a form of demoing a game, but pages back I brought up the idea of "demoing" sometimes leading to completion. To summarize, I think the description is valid if you didn't enjoy the game and didn't complete it. Sitting down and completing the game must have meant there was something of worth to you. That, or perhaps you're a masochist.

 

I guess I've mimicked Extra Credits, but yeah, I don't know if you can justify a statement like, "I didn't like it at all, but I played it all." Since you didn't pay for it, you should be able to put it down without any consequence and move on.