Yantelope Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yep, the first one was fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Probably because we're discussing this but apparently there's a demo for the new Driver game on the consoles but the PC version is not getting a demo. Been thinking about this, I think the reason Ubisoft are doing this on PC is because the retail version requires you to be online all the time (retarded Ubisoft DRM™) wheras a demo version wouldn't. Feh, who'd buy the game on PC anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Rat Posted August 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Feh, who'd buy the game on PC anyway Now? Very few. Which is a shame, because a lot of previously console-exclusive games (mostly indies), got better sales only after moving to the PC. It doesn't mean the same couldn't happen to Driver if it were a good game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 I've actually switched my buying preference from console to PC. Graphics are better and the games are usually cheaper. Origin had Bulletstorm for $9 yesterday. I'm gonna wait for the $5 mark though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgamemnonV2 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 You know, I somehow doubt we've gone 23 pages without mentioning all the key points and facts to piracy, such as: - It's not stealing, it's data copyright infringement. - Not only does it not hurt the market, it actually helps it through promotion. - No one loses a damn thing over piracy (except for the loss of a guaranteed sale). As for the argument and justification behind it, everyone has a different story. I'm sure most of it is done out of convenience and because few are ever prosecuted on it, but for me it's completely different. When EA spear-headed the DRM nightmare on Spore, I supported them. At the time I thought, "No big deal, I always have Internet access. This won't inconvenience me." That was before we learned EADM launched with tools to detect "hinky" installed programs like Alcohol and Daemon Tools and then lock your CD drive, acting as a rootkit even if you uninstall Spore. I fucking lost a CD drive to EA and was never compensated for buying their game. So yeah, excuse me if I never install an EA game again and just leave the purchased product in the box and simply play with a pirated copy. I will never feel guilty for that. Secondly, any PC gamer will tell you the crappy dilemma we all face. There's rarely a demo for a PC game these days and even if there is it usually does not reflect the full product (although kudos to the games that manage a "timer trial" so you can actually play the full game for a period of time). Most importantly, however, you can never return a PC game once you've opened the box. It doesn't even matter if it wouldn't even install on your computer--most retailers have a policy to never accept refunds for PC games once their seals have been broken. Console gamers don't even face this problem. There's multiple renting services for games AND not only can you return games in a period of time but you can also trade them in for something else! Which brings me to the "try before you buy" philosophy, which I fully support. As long as developers and publishers continue to not publish true demos and as long as retailers keep pretending it's the 1980s, then I'm going to treat them the same way I'm being treated; like an idiot. It really doesn't help when developers like Ubisoft cry wolf all the time and take giant dumps on PC gamers all the time as well. No, sorry, I will not be interested in your game that you purposely held back a month for its PC release for "distribution reasons." Kiss my middle finger on that one, bub. With that in mind, I'm never going to take up an issue with anyone who pirates a game for the same reason I do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 We actually already discussed a lot of that stuff earlier. Also, still sounds like you're just justifying your actions to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 - It's not stealing, it's data copyright infringement. I won't argue with that. It's also a civil case and not a criminal one unless you profit from it. - Not only does it not hurt the market, it actually helps it through promotion. - No one loses a damn thing over piracy (except for the loss of a guaranteed sale). I'd like to see an honest study show what really happens. I really don't know any pirates who then promote games to others to purchase. I always wonder why PC gamers bitch so much about how the companies treat them. Some games sell more on consoles. If you are sick of it, buy a goddamn console or shut up about it. Every market decision has to do with choices and tradeoffs. Going the PC gaming route has its tradeoffs (better graphics, different selection of games vs cost, hardware compatibility etc.) You made your choice and if the game companies don't want to cater to your market, find a different company that does or change your market position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 I always wonder why PC gamers bitch so much about how the companies treat them. Some games sell more on consoles. If you are sick of it, buy a goddamn console or shut up about it. Every market decision has to do with choices and tradeoffs. Going the PC gaming route has its tradeoffs (better graphics, different selection of games vs cost, hardware compatibility etc.) You made your choice and if the game companies don't want to cater to your market, find a different company that does or change your market position. The problem with the "deal with it" stance is that it gives complete power to the developers. Is the consumer simply not allowed to ask for reasonable treatment just because he/she decided to purchase a PC? Most everyone here already knows the PC is treated the way it is because it's not "as popular", but what of it? Saying the consumer should simply shut up isn't a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Rat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I really don't know any pirates who then promote games to others to purchase. Almost every crack group tells you to buy the game if you enjoyed it within the instructions file. And agreed with Rocky, "deal with it" isn't a solution. Consumers have rights as well. Also, still sounds like you're just justifying your actions to yourself. Having a game roothack into your OS and destroy your CD-Drive is a fucking good justification. Edited August 10, 2011 by Cyber Rat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgamemnonV2 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 We actually already discussed a lot of that stuff earlier. Also, still sounds like you're just justifying your actions to yourself. Losing a CD drive is not a justified action to not trusting a publisher who pretended they weren't more malicious than people who create viruses? You want to talk about justice, let's talk about how EA skated through that whole clusterfuck without so much as a lawsuit. People win lawsuits on much less in consumerism, like spilling hot coffee on yourself because the cup apparently didn't say, "CAUTION: HOT." It's utterly disgusting that things like that even happen and just more proof how the ESA manages to get away with so much because lawmakers still think video games "are for kids." - Not only does it not hurt the market, it actually helps it through promotion. - No one loses a damn thing over piracy (except for the loss of a guaranteed sale). I'd like to see an honest study show what really happens. I really don't know any pirates who then promote games to others to purchase. http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml http://www.tomshardware.com/news/sims-piracy-bittorrent-game-sales,8126.html I don't think it's a coincidence that the most-pirated games in the world are also the ones topping out on the sales charts as well. I always wonder why PC gamers bitch so much about how the companies treat them. Some games sell more on consoles. If you are sick of it, buy a goddamn console or shut up about it. Every market decision has to do with choices and tradeoffs. Going the PC gaming route has its tradeoffs (better graphics, different selection of games vs cost, hardware compatibility etc.) You made your choice and if the game companies don't want to cater to your market, find a different company that does or change your market position. My "market" is worth over $11 billion. What do you suggest? I try to find a company that doesn't hate money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I really don't know any pirates who then promote games to others to purchase. Almost every crack group tells you to buy the game if you enjoyed it within the instructions file. And agreed with Rocky, "deal with it" isn't a solution. Consumers have rights as well. Consumers wield all the power. They are the ones with the money. Developers exist for one reason and that is to get your money. If you don't get treated right by a developer then you don't purchase their products. It's simple supply and demand. and Which brings me to the "try before you buy" philosophy, which I fully support. As long as developers and publishers continue to not publish true demos and as long as retailers keep pretending it's the 1980s, then I'm going to treat them the same way I'm being treated; like an idiot. It really doesn't help when developers like Ubisoft cry wolf all the time and take giant dumps on PC gamers all the time as well. No, sorry, I will not be interested in your game that you purposely held back a month for its PC release for "distribution reasons." Kiss my middle finger on that one, bub. was more what I was referring to when I said you're justifying your actions. Also, your article about EA promoting piracy is really the guy talking about how they're coping in the wake of piracy. They've begun selling services to pirates and making money that way. It's not evidence that piracy helps sell games. It's actually evidence to the contrary. Edited August 10, 2011 by Yantelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Consumers wield all the power. They are the ones with the money. Developers exist for one reason and that is to get your money. If you don't get treated right by a developer then you don't purchase their products. It's simple supply and demand. "Consumers" (plural) theoretically wield all the power. The "consumer" (singular) holds no power. You as a single entity is worthless to the average publisher. They only listen when there's a very large group of people involved, and even then it almost never works. You can round up 100K, 200K, even 500K for your cause and it's still a relatively tiny amount for a company like EA. Consumers only matter when it's a gigantic mob all behaving in a specific way. Any less than that and your opinion falls to deaf ears, and the entire PC community is in the minority, so that entire user base is completely ignored. What then? What CAN people do but be as squeaky a wheel as they can? There's literally nothing else they can do, because simply not buying a product isn't going to get major publishers to listen to them. That, or they make up excuses as to why sales were low, completely missing the point (game sold low = "PC market is dying. We'll care even less about that platform in the future") Just look at Ubisoft's pathetically circular logic. They've rigged their own "system" so that, no matter what, they can blame the PC in cases like Driver: San Francisco with its shitty always-on DRM. High sales, low piracy? "DRM worked!" Low sales, high piracy? "PC is infested with pirates! More draconian DRM!" High sales, high piracy? "Pirated games = lost sales! We deserve more! More DRM!" Low sales, low piracy? "The PC market is dying!" And they can do whatever they want because that market isn't big enough for them to care. Simply voting with your wallet one way or the other won't do a thing when your platform is largely ignored regardless of what happens in it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, without any numbers or figures for us to go off, publishers can blame pirates or make claims as to the effectiveness of DRM and we have no way of verifying them. I'm not really sure why they'd be deliberately misleading the public though. If their DRM really does nothing for sales why would they bother to keep implementing it? I'd also like to point out that I'm totally cool with stripping out the DRM from a game you've purchased. I just think that pirating a game to demo it is not justified by saying that developers are somehow taking advantage of you. I also don't see how developers are taking advantage or mistreating gamers outside of perhaps installing malware unbeknownst to users. I'm fairly certain that's illegal too given the way Sony had to pay out large settlements for putting hidden malware in their audio CDs years ago. EA may have gotten away with it but it's in no way condoned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 It's a mystery why they keep up with their silly DRM schemes, although I tend to think it's just simple ignorance from the company's part. Ubi, for instance, seems to have this completely strange idea that if they release a game with its PC version on day 1 WITHOUT always-on DRM, that it would be pirated so much it'd drive people who would've bought the console versions to piracy on the PC instead. At least that's what I read when they tweeted that "Keep in mind Driver is being released on the PC day 1 as well" excuse when someone asked them about their DRM. Publishers currently are having entitlement issues as much as many gamers are. There's this idea that any time anyone ever plays their game they're automatically entitled to money and should get a cut ASAP, hence their crackdown on used games. But more relevant to this topic is the idea that every single time something is pirated they're automatically owed money. Now, I'm not trying to condone piracy, but I am saying this kind of mentality is destructive, because emotions begin playing into what should be a business decision. They're not sitting back and analyzing whether or not every pirate is even their target market, given how so many businesses operate under this principle. Instead, they see people pirating the game and they start throwing hissy fits that they're not being paid for it all. These entitlement issues begin to bleed onto their corporate strategy, trying to eradicate piracy that in reality will never go away because there will always be millions who pirate just for the sake of pirating and wouldn't have bought the game at any time. The only people who lose out of this tunnel-vision policy are the paying consumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Yeah, if you check out the DRM, Project Ten Dollar thread I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I have to think that Ubi has at least some sales data to judge whether DRM helps increases sales though. Edited August 10, 2011 by Yantelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I really don't know any pirates who then promote games to others to purchase. *raises hand* I do this. A lot. Even when I decide a game I've pirated to try isn't for me, I will usually talk to friends about it and if they like what they hear, it is likely one or more of them will buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I love these stories http://www.hardocp.com/news/2011/08/11/antipiracy_lawyers_accuse_blind_man_downloading_porn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I love these stories http://www.hardocp.c...wnloading_porn/ That's...quite out there, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Bet they didn't see that coming. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Bet they didn't see that coming. http://instantrimshot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 http://torrentfreak.com/i-dont-care-about-your-profits-and-it-enrages-me-that-you-think-i-should-110911/ It's maybe a bit extreme in comparing entertainment industry to blackwater but it does get it's point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Yeah for some reason it makes me think of this story which just came out. http://www.develop-online.net/news/38614/We-lost-10m-from-pre-owned-Heavy-Rain-Quantic-Dream Secondhand gaming doesn't cost you anything. You might have been able to earn more money without doing any extra work if you removed rights that people have had for a couple of hundred years now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Secondhand gaming doesn't cost you anything. You might have been able to earn more money without doing any extra work if you removed rights that people have had for a couple of hundred years now. Exactly! They go on the false assumption that all those who bought the game used would've bought it new if there was no other option. Make a game that people will want to play for years and have it reasonably priced. Profit will come! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Sterling also pointed to this which was lulz in light of recent comments. http://www.destructoid.com/heavy-rain-has-no-replay-value-but-that-s-a-good-thing--146940.phtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Yeah for some reason it makes me think of this story which just came out. http://www.develop-o...n-Quantic-Dream Secondhand gaming doesn't cost you anything. You might have been able to earn more money without doing any extra work if you removed rights that people have had for a couple of hundred years now. Perhaps if they hadn't canned the DLC they would've kept the game in people's hands (and off second hand shelves) for longer and made money on the extra content, but I guess they've just been too busy making... Ummmmm... Making....What exactly have they been doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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