Piracy

[Yantelope]

I see we've started entering the realm of sci-fi...

 

Also Yante it usually takes a bit less than "hours of your life" to work out if a game sucks or not. Raptr says I have 2 hours in BF3 beta for example.

 

That's still 2 hours isn't it?

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

I feel it would be beneficial if more companies set up an "instant trial service" like EA did with Gaikai (I think that's what it's called) or have both instant trials, rentals and purchases, like OnLive. Want to see if Warhammer 40k is worth your time? Get a 30-minute taste, and if you want more, rent it from their service, or buy it from the stores.

[TheMightyEthan]

I see we've started entering the realm of sci-fi...

 

Also Yante it usually takes a bit less than "hours of your life" to work out if a game sucks or not. Raptr says I have 2 hours in BF3 beta for example.

 

That's still 2 hours isn't it?

But if those 2 hours suck then really it's more cost to the game, rather than value out of it. Maybe the game sucks from the beginning, but you keep playing for a couple hours hoping it gets better, or that it'll grow on you, before finally giving up. In that case you didn't get 2 hours of value for your $1, you paid a dollar and *also* wasted 2 hours on something bad.

 

Also what Duke said.

[Yantelope]

If you've noticed though, companies are moving away from demos and trials. Why? because people aren't generally more likely to buy a game after demoing it.

 

@Ethan: I understand what you're saying about paying and not enjoying yourself but now you're just trying to guarantee enjoyment or pleasure. The biggest problem with this is that you actually now have a vested interest in not enjoying the game you're playing because if you enjoy it you have to pay for it. In the end the only thing you're actually going to accomplish is enjoying games less methinks.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Yantelope

[Thursday Next]

I see we've started entering the realm of sci-fi...

 

Also Yante it usually takes a bit less than "hours of your life" to work out if a game sucks or not. Raptr says I have 2 hours in BF3 beta for example.

 

That's still 2 hours isn't it?

 

As they say, time is money.

 

If you demo a game for more than 8hrs 20mins to save yourself the $60 for a new release like MW3 you are essentially working for less than minimum wage. For a released title such as Deus Ex, "demoing" the game for more than about 5 and a half hours to save the $40 price tag is your minimum wage limit, and spending more than 2hrs 45mins on a $20 indie title puts you in minimum wage territory too.

 

That's all assuming that you don't then buy the game.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

If you've noticed though, companies are moving away from demos and trials. Why? because people aren't generally more likely to buy a game after demoing it.

I think that touches a deeper concern on whether the price they ask for a game is too much. But that's another argument for another thread.

[Yantelope]

If you've noticed though, companies are moving away from demos and trials. Why? because people aren't generally more likely to buy a game after demoing it.

I think that touches a deeper concern on whether the price they ask for a game is too much. But that's another argument for another thread.

 

But as Masterdex has already honestly admitted, even $1 is too much for him....

[MasterDex]

You may not believe me...

 

Is the point we keep coming back to.

 

I'm not discounting the rest of what you said and it's a fine point you made that I can't disagree with but I think just this first sentence sums up how grey the area of piracy is. Take books for example. Books began as extreme luxury items. They gained mass appeal and many ensured themselves as classics in the minds of the masses through piracy. Back then, it was no different to now. Copyright was there but piracy still represented a grey area, ethically, as it does now. Legally, we can say with full confidence that the issue is black and white but ethics differ and it would be incorrect to make the blanket statement that piracy is ethically wrong because ethics are often personal.

 

Why am I a fool for not wanting to hand over any money, even if it's as little as a dollar, if I'm not sure whether I'll like it or not.

 

Because if you're spending hours of your life on something that's not even worth $1 to you then you clearly have no concept of the value of time or money or both.

 

You're assuming I'm spending hours (there was no need to add "of your life", that's just unnecessarily hyperbolic) playing the games I pirated. You're also assuming that I've made a value decision before downloading/playing the game. You then used those assumptions to come to, what I feel is, a rather insulting conclusion and I would have felt insulted if that conclusion had any real basis but it doesn't. Since you brought it up however, I have to ask. In your opinion, what is the value of time and money?

 

How much would I be willing to pay to try the game in order to see if I liked it? Nothing.

 

See, this is what's telling. The rest of your argument is simply to justify this statement. You have to contrive a justification for the fact that you're unwilling to part with any money lest you find that you wasted it on a game you didn't like.

 

Why would I need to contrive a justification? I stated that I'm unwilling to part with any money unless I think I'm going to enjoy the game. I expanded on my opinion more to help explain my point of view. Saying that it's a fact that I'm unwilling to part with any money lest I find that I wasted it on a game I didn't like is ridiculous because it isn't a fact. You can't prove it's a fact and I know it's not a fact because, you know, it's myself I'm talking about.

 

9/10, I feel pretty confident whether I'll like a game or not and so I purchase it. Sometimes, that works out bad for me and I find that I didn't enjoy the game. Most of the time, and I put this down to how well I know my own preferences, I find I've made the right decision. The rest of the time, I'm entirely unsure whether I'll enjoy the game, whether the game is worth anything to me personally and so I might try out a pirate copy. This is where I go back to that second assumption you made above (i.e. That I've made a value judgement before downloading/playing a game). The point of downloading the pirate copy is to make that value judgement because I don't feel I can make the judgement without first trying the game.

 

Disagree with me all you like but please try to avoid stepping over the line into claiming that your opinion holds any greater value than mine. I say that because I feel you're coming close to doing that. I respect your opinion, please respect mine.

 

If you've noticed though, companies are moving away from demos and trials. Why? because people aren't generally more likely to buy a game after demoing it.

I think that touches a deeper concern on whether the price they ask for a game is too much. But that's another argument for another thread.

 

But as Masterdex has already honestly admitted, even $1 is too much for him....

 

See, now you're stepping over that line I've just talked about. You're twisting my words to make the point you want to make. I never admitted that $1 is too much for me. I can't continue this discussion with you if you're going to continue to argue like this.

Edited October 5, 2011 by MasterDex

[TheMightyEthan]

If you demo a game for more than 8hrs 20mins to save yourself the $60 for a new release like MW3 you are essentially working for less than minimum wage.

Good thing MW3's only gonna be 5 hours long then.

 

Seriously though, I agree with you. If I spend more than about an hour demoing a game I'm almost certainly going to end up buying it.

[Yantelope]

I have to ask. In your opinion, what is the value of time and money?

 

I'm glad you asked. In honesty I was tempted to buy an R4 device. I thought if I had one I could play some games I didn't actually want to buy. Then I thought about this a little longer and asked myself, why would I waste my time playing games that weren't even worth my money? That resolved my question then and there. Do I still occasionally buy a game that I don't love? Yeah, sometimes. I can't remember ever really not enjoying a game that I bought to the point of feeling cheated or ripped off though. Maybe Uncharted 2.

 

I stated that I'm unwilling to part with any money unless I think I'm going to enjoy the game.

 

Except that's the opposite of what you stated you do. You claim that you pirate a game so that you don't spend any money on it until you know you'll enjoy it. You'll notice also that I didn't specifically call you out as a fool and I did that on purpose. I don't pretend to know what you personally do but I stand by my statement that someone who spends his time on things that aren't worth his money is a fool and if by your own admission you accept that you do this then you're the one feeling convicted. I'm not trying to disrespect your opinions I'm only trying to point out where I disagree. I don't know a better word to use than foolish though.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Yantelope

[deanb]

If you've noticed though, companies are moving away from demos and trials. Why? because people aren't generally more likely to buy a game after demoing it.[citation needed][1]

 

@Ethan: I understand what you're saying about paying and not enjoying yourself but now you're just trying to guarantee enjoyment or pleasure. The biggest problem with this is that you actually now have a vested interest in not enjoying the game you're playing because if you enjoy it you have to pay for it. In the end the only thing you're actually going to accomplish is enjoying games less methinks.

 

[1] I was under the impression that it was due to it being an extra cost since you need to make a demo on top of the full game too. Which is where things like Gaikia/Onlive come in. Cos you don't need to make the demo as it's a set 30 minute chunk of the game. At most it's a case of porting it to Onlive/Gaikia which I can't imagine being too hard cos that'd be detrimental to Onlive/Gaikias aims of getting publishers on board

 

.

And the whole point of demoing the game is to see if you are interested. If it's a game you're not interested in at all, for example I'd never bother with any horror game, then you're not going to get to the stage of demoing. You're working off the assumption that we don't want to buy games which is frankly absurd.

 

Also your honour I present to you:

http://steamcommunit...e/games?tab=all

http://steamcommunit...v/games?tab=all

 

And I'm the one with a vested interest in not buying games huh?

 

Holy crapballs you guys have posted a lot.

[deanb]

I thought if I had one I could play some games I didn't actually want to buy.

 

Which would be pirating to own. Which many of your comments do suggest you're applying how/why you pirate to the rest of us.

[Yantelope]

See, now you're stepping over that line I've just talked about. You're twisting my words to make the point you want to make. I never admitted that $1 is too much for me. I can't continue this discussion with you if you're going to continue to argue like this.

 

'twas a cheap shot and was mostly in jest there. Cheerfully withdrawn on that point. Sorry, this is getting more emotional than I intended it to.

[MasterDex]

I have to ask. In your opinion, what is the value of time and money?

 

I'm glad you asked. In honesty I was tempted to buy an R4 device. I thought if I had one I could play some games I didn't actually want to buy. Then I thought about this a little longer and asked myself, why would I waste my time playing games that weren't even worth my money? That resolved my question then and there. Do I still occasionally buy a game that I don't love? Yeah, sometimes. I can't remember ever really not enjoying a game that I bought to the point of feeling cheated or ripped off though. Maybe Uncharted 2.

 

That wasn't an answer to my question. It's a straightforward question, you should be able to provide a straightforward answer. I'm asking you to quantify the value of time and money. To discuss what you typed however.

why would I waste my time playing games that weren't even worth my money?

You're making a value judgement before having played the game so I agree, what's the point in trying the game when you've made that value judgement. If I want to check a game out, it's because I have yet to make a value judgement.

 

I stated that I'm unwilling to part with any money unless I think I'm going to enjoy the game.

 

Except that's the opposite of what you stated you do. You claim that you pirate a game so that you don't spend any money on it until you know you'll enjoy it. You'll notice also that I didn't specifically call you out as a fool and I did that on purpose. I don't pretend to know what you personally do but I stand by my statement that someone who spends his time on things that aren't worth his money is a fool and if by your own admission you accept that you do this then you're the one feeling convicted.

 

Try reading what I said again.

If I don't think I'm going to play or enjoy a game, I won't purchase it.

I have enough interest to try it* out but not enough interest to buy it. How much would I be willing to pay to try the game in order to see if I liked it? Nothing.

 

*=Europa Universalis

This second quote is basically the same as saying I wouldn't pay to play a demo except I'm making the personal choice (In many cases the only choice), to pirate the game to try it out before I buy it.

 

someone who spends his time on things that aren't worth his money is a fool and if by your own admission you accept that you do this then you're the one feeling convicted.

 

Please quote where I admit that I spend time on things that aren't worth my money.

[Yantelope]

@dean, I said you'd have an interest in not enjoying the games that you demo. As far as the cost issue of releasing a demo, I'm not sure I believe that as I'm not sure I believe it when they tell us the PC version got delayed for QA reasons. Also to my point is them releasing demos only long after the game has been released. They hope that perhaps a few stragglers will download the demo and then buy the game but they don't want to lose any day one sales on people who demo the game and don't like it. The PR spin is they want to get the game out and then work on the demo but again, I'm not sure I believe them.

 

I've also never questioned how many games you people in here have bought. I'm sure you guys probably buy tons of games and that's good, support the industry!

[Yantelope]

Please quote where I admit that I spend time on things that aren't worth my money.

 

 

You then used those assumptions to come to, what I feel is, a rather insulting conclusion and I would have felt insulted if that conclusion had any real basis but it doesn't.

 

You wouldn't have felt that you'd have felt insulted if you didn't do what I alleged that you did do which you discount by saying my conclusion has no basis.

 

On time and money: It's value is different for everyone. I find that for me, the value of a videogame is usually around $20 so that's usually what I spend on them. That value isn't contingent upon my enjoyment though. I'm purchasing the opportunity for enjoyment. You're trying to guarantee enjoyment though an illegal download.

[TheMightyEthan]

To jump on the "how much are games generally worth" topic, to me if I'm interested in it it's usually worth about $10-15. If I'm quite interested it bumps up to the $20 range. Games I'm excited about but not just absolutely dying for are about $40, and only games I'm 100% head-explodingly stoked for am I willing to pay $60.

 

That's all for "full" games. When you start talking about smaller, XBLA/PSN-type games that all goes out the window. Like retail games though I think those are generally over-charged for.

[deanb]

I don't think I've paid £40 ("full price") for a game for years now.

 

Oh and this here

The biggest problem with this is that you actually now have a vested interest in not enjoying the game you're playing because if you enjoy it you have to pay for it

Kinda implies we don't want to buy the game. When the fact that many of us here have quite a decent games collection would suggest quite the opposite.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

This conversation has turned from a philosophical and ethical debate into personal attacks and judgments of character. We should either change direction or lock this thread entirely, because if it's just going to be personal attacks, there's no reason to continue the discussion.

[MasterDex]

Please quote where I admit that I spend time on things that aren't worth my money.

 

 

You then used those assumptions to come to, what I feel is, a rather insulting conclusion and I would have felt insulted if that conclusion had any real basis but it doesn't.

 

You wouldn't have felt that you'd have felt insulted if you didn't do what I alleged that you did do which you discount by saying my conclusion has no basis.

 

On time and money: It's value is different for everyone. I find that for me, the value of a videogame is usually around $20 so that's usually what I spend on them. That value isn't contingent upon my enjoyment though. I'm purchasing the opportunity for enjoyment. You're trying to guarantee enjoyment though an illegal download.

 

I was referring to your conclusion that one would "clearly have no concept of the value of time or money or both", regardless of the preconditions leading to it which led me to ask what you believe the value of time and money is. You answered correctly as "It's value is different for everyone." Implying that someone clearly has no concept of the value of time or money when the value of time and money differs from person to person is insulting, I believe.

 

I'm trying to guarantee enjoyment through an illegal download, yes but very rarely do I do such and only in cases, like I've said, where I find myself unable to make a value judgement. I won't just purchase something and hope I enjoy it unless I have some belief that I will enjoy it. If I had the disposable income to do such, I likely would but I'm currently unemployed and living on benefits so I have to be wiser than that with my money.

 

 

This conversation has turned from a philosophical and ethical debate into personal attacks and judgments of character. We should either change direction or lock this thread entirely, because if it's just going to be personal attacks, there's no reason to continue the discussion.

 

In a topic with such contrasting opinions, I think it's only natural that things get heated. I don't think we need to close the thread. I believe we're all mature enough here to be able to move on and get back on topic.

Edited October 5, 2011 by MasterDex

[Thursday Next]

It always descends into name calling, then people step away for a few months (mostly to think up some more car based analogies) cool off some and we pick up in a more civilised way.

 

 

It's a shame this thread lost its subheading "Wherein we argue eternally."

[Yantelope]

I won't just purchase something and hope I enjoy it unless I have some belief that I will enjoy it. If I had the disposable income to do such, I likely would but I'm currently unemployed and living on benefits so I have to be wiser than that with my money.

I'm going to go back to justification on this one. I don't think saying you might not enjoy it legitimizes illegally downloading a game and I agree with TN by saying that it's a fallacy for anyone to claim they know for sure they wouldn't buy a game. What people think they will do and what people actually do are not the same thing.

It's a shame this thread lost its subheading "Wherein we argue eternally."

 

Fully agree, bring it back.

This conversation has turned from a philosophical and ethical debate into personal attacks and judgments of character. We should either change direction or lock this thread entirely, because if it's just going to be personal attacks, there's no reason to continue the discussion.

 

I don't see any name calling or personal attacks.

[deanb]

I won't just purchase something and hope I enjoy it unless I have some belief that I will enjoy it. If I had the disposable income to do such, I likely would but I'm currently unemployed and living on benefits so I have to be wiser than that with my money.

I'm going to go back to justification on this one. I don't think saying you might not enjoy it legitimizes illegally downloading a game and I agree with TN by saying that it's a fallacy for anyone to claim they know for sure they wouldn't buy a game. What people think they will do and what people actually do are not the same thing.

 

Why would we/I not know what we/I would do?

 

I know that I won't be buying a game for £20 and up unless I have some assurances that it is a good game and worth that amount. So I do know that I wouldn't buy the game. It's pretty simple. I am me, I know what I would do.

 

 

It's a shame this thread lost its subheading "Wherein we argue eternally."

 

Fully agree, bring it back.

Gimme..$20 I think and it can come back.

[Hot Heart]

Hate to get involved in this but...

 

I know that I won't be buying a game for £20 and up unless I have some assurances that it is a good game and worth that amount. So I do know that I wouldn't buy the game. It's pretty simple. I am me, I know what I would do.

 

Wait until it drops in price?

 

Why would we/I not know what we/I would do?

 

You'd have to go back to T-Next's statement, like Yantelope says.

[Yantelope]

People are creatures of impulse. We make snap decisions and deviate from our plans all the time. Additionally we can't stay on diets or quit smoking. It's called cognitive dissonance.