Piracy

[Johnny]

@TN

 

So you're actually saying that disregarding wether it harms publishers/devs or not, even if the scenario I laid out in my post was true, you'd still hold the opinion that it's bad because publishers don't want you to pirate? Despite all the advantages?

 

As to your "stay off my lawn" analogy... I'd run over anyone's lawn if I had a reason outweighing whatever disadvantages that held.

 

I personally believe that for something to be immoral, it must cause harm, or be done with malicious intent or at least guilt

 

Precisely how I view it.

[Yantelope]

As to your "stay off my lawn" analogy... I'd run over anyone's lawn if I had a reason outweighing whatever disadvantages that held.

 

Yeah, that's the heart of the disagreement. You're arguing that the ends justify the means and I don't think that's true.

[Thursday Next]

I'd run over anyone's lawn if I had a reason outweighing whatever disadvantages that held.

 

A pity then, that "for my own entertainment" seems such a weighty reason.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Thursday Next

[deanb]

Absolutely ever? Or just on topics you personally don't feel happy about?

 

edit: @yante that is. The "1 post since" thing is a bit hit n miss.

 

@Thursday: you know "About to hit a kid on a bike = leave tire marks on lawn" is not the same as "trial a game in order to make informed purchase = publisher get's a big miffed".

Though I dunno, maybe people do avoid running over kids just for the lark?

[Yantelope]

Absolutely ever? Or just on topics you personally don't feel happy about?

 

Assuming this is directed at me: I'm trying to think of an example where the ends would justify the means but I'm not really seeing it.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Yantelope

[Thursday Next]

@Thursday: you know "About to hit a kid on a bike = leave tire marks on lawn" is not the same as "trial a game in order to make informed purchase = publisher get's a big miffed".

Though I dunno, maybe people do avoid running over kids just for the lark?

 

The day you pirating a game saves a life I'll take that point. Till then let's just stick too: "Stepping on my lawn might be fun = I get miffed" and "Playing a pirated game might be fun = Publisher gets miffed".

[deanb]

@Yante: You're in a supermarket. Your lungs fill with fluid and need to be drained. You need something to sterilise and something to pierce your rib cage. Handily there's copious quantities of kitchen knives and vodka. So does the person there n then take these off the shelves and do the operation, despite the fact these goods are unpaid for, or let you make a gurgle noise then expire?

 

There's probably a bunch more. As you've said yourself there's no way you wouldn't know 'til it happens. (Just a world without piracy is many scales more improbably than medical complexities in a store)

 

@Thursday: The fact they're not comparable was kinda my point. Also thanks for changing what I said.

[Yantelope]

Man, I'd probably die just for the lack of wanting to stab myself. That being said, most store owners would likely do anything they could to aid you and that would probably include grabbing a knife off the shelf and draining your fluids for you. I'd also be happy to stab myself first and then purchase the knife later. It's not stealing until you leave the store with it right?

[deanb]

Sorry shoulda said someone else would do the stabbing. Actually how about you're stabbing, wife is fluid lungs. Also US stores are fine with you just using/eating shit along the way as long as you pay at the end? I'm pretty sure you won't be going by the checkout on the way to hospital either way.

 

edit: Dammit now you got me doing hypothetical n what ifs. Damn you Yante!

 

I will point out you're as sure that for you the ends wouldn't justify the means as sure as we are that if we test and are satisfied by a game we'll pick it up.

[Thursday Next]

No way would I stab someone to save their life in a US store, they'd survive, get asthma and sue me for my trouble.

 

P.S. Dean, I clicked the quote button. I removed the previous statement directed at Yant. I didn't change anything else.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Thursday Next

[Yantelope]

Oh yeah, I don't know what I'd do, I'm only speculating. Also, yeah, you can drink drinks in the supermarket and pay for them at checkout. I see it all the time. The shoplifting laws are such that until you actually try to leave the premises it's not stealing, which makes sense. Also, worst case scenario? Would I save my own life by shoplifting, maybe, but I'd do it knowing full well that I'd have to pay some sort of fine or do some minor jail time too? Sure. I'm not going to demand that the store owes me that knife.

[RockyRan]

Absolutely ever? Or just on topics you personally don't feel happy about?

 

Assuming this is directed at me: I'm trying to think of an example where the ends would justify the means but I'm not really seeing it.

 

Well, I've given you a couple of examples (well, one and a half) where the ends of piracy most definitely justify the means. There's plenty of other situations where the creators don't even care. Tim Schafer once said he'd rather have people pirate Psychonauts and instead buy merchandise off the Double Fine site, since they make more money off that anyway. Valve says they absolutely don't care and don't even look at piracy numbers because they know it doesn't ultimately affect them. Several music bands also say they don't care and would rather get the exposure from pirated songs and have people go to the concerts instead, since they make far more money off concerts anyway. A Microsoft exec (I forget his name, it might've been Gates himself) once said that if people are going to pirate software, he'd at least want them to pirate Microsoft's software.

 

There's a whole bunch of instances where even the creators don't care or actively encourage pirating. That doesn't justify freeloading but at the very least there's several people on the industry side of things who DON'T view things so black and white.

 

 

 

And I'd just like to clarify, I'm not against people 'pirating to try' and then purchasing right away if they do intend to play it. I would never hold that against people, and I know you guys are generally pretty good on that front. It's just important to understand both sides.

 

I think we all understand both sides, but at least for me I see absolutely nothing productive by using blanket statements like "piracy is always wrong, always, never ever right, because never no always wrong". It's such a black-and-white, unrealistic stance with so many exceptions that it doesn't even reflect accurately in real world scenarios.

[madbassman39]

I really have a hard time expressing my feelings on piracy, because I am not 100% against it... but I don't agree with it. If you try before you buy, then thats your thing. If you only pirate games not available anymore, then thats your thing.Those I would take no issue doing if I did them, but I just don't. If you pirate because you feel its better or not worth your money, or its too much money, then that's your thing. Who am I to say don't do it?

 

On the other hand, I never feel good about pirating software because it really does hurt the industry. If sales drop for a game that deserves a sequel, and it never gets one, then that's disappointing. Piracy is not to blame, but if I pirate, I feel like I am not doing anything to help the game.

 

I really don't care what you do with your computer and how you obtain your games, because pirating the game is not the reason games fail, but it can be a contributing factor. I just don't personally do it because I personally am against it.

 

Its almost as if I'm on both sides of the fence, but really if someone where to ask me if they should pirate a game or buy it, I would tell them this "If it were me, I'd buy it."

[MasterDex]

Absolutely ever? Or just on topics you personally don't feel happy about?

 

Assuming this is directed at me: I'm trying to think of an example where the ends would justify the means but I'm not really seeing it.

 

How's this for an example of where the ends justifies the means.

 

In the 80's when VCRs had become mass market devices, Japanophiles started to bring over anime from Japan to the US and copied them, distributed the copied (pirated) anime to their friends, who distributed it to their friends and so on and so forth. By the end of the chain, you were getting a video that had been copied and probably watched several times but it was still something no one had seen before, it was this weird, Japanese cartoon that often wasn't for children - which was weird in itself for the US. These chains of friends started to add subtitles and fansubbing was born. As fansubbing and anime piracy continued and grew, the popularity of anime grew along with it, helped by the piracy. Anime piracy helped to sow the seeds in the creation of a new market for the content creators.

 

But it didn't stop there. When the internet became more widely available to the every-man, fansubbing and anime piracy grew yet again but again, so to did the popularity of anime, in new regions yet again like Europe and South America. Fast forward to the arrival of broadband and fansubbing and anime piracy was well established with multiple groups delivering everything that came out of the industry. But this was the naughties now and media industries had a hard-on for C&D's so fansubbers were shut down, children were sued and the anime industry went to loggerheads with their consumers. It was too late for that though, fansubbing and anime piracy was too established, eliminating it was like playing whack-a-mole. Once one group was crushed, another rose up somewhere else. But it still helped the industry overall because anime grew in popularity again, expensive import sales were being made for titles that were deemed "unsuitable for the market" by western distributors but fansubbing gave those anime a market outside of Japan. C&D's continued, urged on by Western distributors.

 

Fansubbers (pirates) called out to the Japanese. "We can sub your shows, often better than the companies you're selling your license to. Sell us a license suitable for our needs and means and we'll provide a share of what we make from subbing and streaming your shows.". And they did. Crunchyroll has now become a mainstay of the anime industry in the west. Crunchyroll makes the anime industry more money and it used to be a streaming site of pirated material. Gintama, the anime my avatar comes from was never going to see a western release without fansubbers. I pirated and watched every episode of it as it released in Japan, week by week, and then Crunchyroll got it. Now I'm still watching it week by week except I'm not breaking the law. I can watch from episode 1 right through to episode 228, legally, knowing my subscription is helping the creators, which I'm more than happy with after the joy they've given me through their show.

 

TL;DR: Anime piracy created markets, grew markets and overall, helped the anime industry out. I'm willing to wager that many anime creators would be willing to agree that the ends justified the means.

Edited October 6, 2011 by MasterDex

[Yantelope]

@Rocky, but like I said, Tim Schaffer and Double Fine and musicians and other people sign agreements with publishers and producers to manufacture and sell their goods. Of course they'd love to profit more but it's a bit wrong of them to suggest pirating the game which other people have contributed actually bringing to market and then pocketing money off of gear. Valve may say piracy doesn't affect them but Steam has DRM built in right?

 

Musicians is a great example. They don't make much money off of their CDs so they don't give a crap about if you buy those or not. They want you to come to their shows and buy their shirts. The problem is that the people who make them famous and get them radio time and invest money in producing their music, paying for studio time and marketing their albums do make money from the CD sales so for a band to benefit from all those services and then suggest that fans undercut the record label is ridiculous. If you want to give away your music go for it, just don't sign with a label saying you wont.

[Yantelope]

@MasterDex, Your story is that of an illegitimate business that went legit. If the desire was there to watch anime then it's commercial success could have grown equally as well without piracy as with. You're talking about an untapped market. To think that piracy somehow created the demand is not true. The content created the demand. The lack of supply created piracy.

[Cyber Rat]

If the desire was there to watch anime then it's commercial success could have grown equally as well without piracy as with. You're talking about an untapped market. To think that piracy somehow created the demand is not true. The content created the demand. The lack of supply created piracy.

 

There was never a demand for cars because we had horses, but hey, someone created a car and now it's part of everyday life. People couldn't have said they had a desire to watch anime if they hadn't known about it in the first place. Most people found out via piracy. A good chunk of those people I know now import anime figures, games and various other merchandise they wouldn't have cared for otherwise.

 

 

Yea, sorry for the car comparison.

 

Edited October 6, 2011 by Cyber Rat

[Yantelope]

There was never a demand for cars because we had horses, but hey, someone created a car and now it's part of everyday activity. People couldn't have said they had a desire to watch anime if they hadn't known about it in the first place.

 

Cars are a preferred mode of transportation for various reasons, not defecating all over the road for one, the demand for transportation existed before cars though.

 

Also, you're right, people who had witnessed anime and showed it to friends created a demand for it. If Anime had been shown legally in America the demand would have grown too.

[TheMightyEthan]

But it wasn't shown legally, that's the point. It was only shown because of piracy.

[MasterDex]

@MasterDex, Your story is that of an illegitimate business that went legit. If the desire was there to watch anime then it's commercial success could have grown equally as well without piracy as with. You're talking about an untapped market. To think that piracy somehow created the demand is not true. The content created the demand. The lack of supply created piracy.

 

The content created a limited demand while piracy grew that demand exponentially and supplied that demand. The piracy of anime, like piracy in Russia, helped to open up a new market that the content creators would have struggled greatly to open themselves. Piracy can have a positive effect on markets and to deny that is to deny a true statement.

 

Here's a good study on media piracy in emerging economies that helps illustrate the moral grey area that is piracy, because it is a moral grey area, only its legality is black and white. I've set the link to page 399 which provides some insight into the book piracy I mentioned earlier in this thread. Media Piracy in Emerging Economies

Edited October 6, 2011 by MasterDex

[Yantelope]

But it wasn't shown legally, that's the point. It was only shown because of piracy.

 

How is that the point? Piracy filled demand, it didn't create demand. Only content that people want to see can create the actual demand. You didn't enjoy anime because it was pirated. If what you saw was a legal copy you wouldn't have enjoyed it less.

 

@MasterDex, if you're arguing that piracy may be cheaper than a marketing campaign then that's true. Clearly the Anime producers didn't want to risk their own capital bringing it to the west and they probably missed out on a lot of money that way.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Yantelope

[MasterDex]

But it wasn't shown legally, that's the point. It was only shown because of piracy.

 

How is that the point? Piracy filled demand, it didn't create demand. Only content that people want to see can create the actual demand. You didn't enjoy anime because it was pirated. If what you saw was a legal copy you wouldn't have enjoyed it less.

 

@MasterDex, if you're arguing that piracy may be cheaper than a marketing campaign then that's true. Clearly the Anime producers didn't want to risk their own capital bringing it to the west and they probably missed out on a lot of money that way.

In the case of anime, piracy created the demand by introducing the product to a new market. You're right to say that people would have enjoyed the product regardless of whether it was pirated or not but they could not have enjoyed it if they did not know it existed. Would you enjoy a flebberwick? You wouldn't know because the flebberwick doesn't exist to you. You don't know what it is. The problems involved in introducing anime to new markets at the time were great and still are today. Many studios just don't have the funds to do so, it's not just a matter of risking capital.

 

I'm not arguing that piracy may be cheaper than a marketing campaign. I'm arguing that we cannot view piracy as a moral dichotomy. Piracy is a market force. It's never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to disappear. Ever. Treating piracy as morally wrong or right doesn't help anyone whereas accepting that piracy is a multi-faceted, morally ambiguous force allows us the flexibility to diminish the problems associated with it that the strict, heavy-handed and outdated copyright laws don't have.

Edited October 6, 2011 by MasterDex

[Yantelope]

That's not really true because people knew what Anime was before pirates brought it over. Anime only began because Americans brought their cartoons over to Japan. At best your argument is that Piracy greases the wheels of the market but that's a tenuous argument and it's not to say that it doesn't do so at cost to the IP owners.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Yantelope

[fuchikoma]

That's not really true because people knew what Anime was before pirates brought it over. Anime only began because Americans brought their cartoons over to Japan. At best your argument is that Piracy greases the wheels of the market but that's a tenuous argument and it's not to say that it doesn't do so at cost to the IP owners.

 

Actually, even though anime has been on American TV since the 1960s (50s?) most people in North America did not know what anime was until the late 1990s, and I suspect many still don't. Before Sailor Moon and Dragonball hit here, there was just some vague understanding that shows like Robotech or Astroboy weren't produced domestically - though many wouldn't have even thought of that. Beyond that, there were mostly just some vague stereotypes from a few people who thought it was all deviant porn.

 

A vast number of pioneering anime fans, including some who started the current mainstream translation companies, only found out about it because of bootleg copies passed between fans that they may have seen at a friend's house, or often a university sci-fi club.

 

I would even go so far as to say that given the economic troubles the industry has faced in the last decade, without the worldwide adoption increase due to piracy, there may not BE an anime industry today - or at least it would certainly be smaller and hard to compare to what we have now. (Though... personally I'd love to see it do less hyper-pandering to the niche that exploded in the last decade, that's another issue.)

 

But I think this comes down to the basic definitions of morality again. (I believe) you see it as taking the product against the creators' will, and when not authorized to take it, so it is wrong. I see it as basically creating the global industry as it stands today, which has been hugely beneficial, so I'd even say it was a good thing. Morally good? Well, I don't think the fans were trying to build a market as much as they were trying to share something they found neat. Certainly good in terms of "doing good for the supposed victims." Of course, that too is a grey area as the underground distribution channels are so sophisticated now, Japanese have been known to acquire English fansubs that are barely reduced in quality from the commercial discs, turning philanthropic piracy into normal piracy. I cannot say with certainty whether the effect of piracy in the domestic Japanese market is overall beneficial or detrimental to it.

[Yantelope]

I would even go so far as to say that given the economic troubles the industry has faced in the last decade, without the worldwide adoption increase due to piracy, there may not BE an anime industry today - or at least it would certainly be smaller and hard to compare to what we have now.

 

While we're speculating you could just as easily say that without piracy the Anime industry wouldn't be struggling.