TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Mass Effect 2 had the characters with the ship modelled around them, the ending coded to take into account both Zaeed and Kasumi being in your party (there's even a video around the web somewhere where the game was beaten with Kasumi in the party before her DLC was even released). So yeah as has been covered many times before, it's pretty hard to believe it wasn't cut content. I take issue with this viewpoint. I mean yes, it's clear they developed the game planning to have that content, but you don't know what would have happened in a pre-DLC world. Maybe the content would have been in the game, but maybe it just would have been cut altogether, and there would have just been some empty rooms on the Normandy with no mention of Kasumi or Zaeed. I don't mind project $10 stuff that comes free with a new purchase, but I don't like it when it seems like they cut content just to sell it separately. For that kind of thing I'm kind of like Johnny and just go by whether it seems to me like I got a full experience or not on the original game, which admittedly is entirely subjective. *Edit* - @HH: because without the explanation of how it came about it's just deus ex machina, which seems like lazy writing. Edited January 31, 2012 by TheMightyEthan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 There are more problems in the story than that. Characters showing up at just the right time happens at other points too. It's a pretty cliche thing to do anyway, so I wouldn't suspect wrongdoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 No, if the Catwoman parts didn't exist I wouldn't suspect wrongdoing, it just would bug me. Though they could have fixed that with like a 10 second cutscene establishing why she's there and her realizing Batman's in trouble, so really I'm just nitpicking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbassman39 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Haven't really jumped in and made any comments, but I don't think we can eradicate piracy. Piracy will always find a way, but what the game companies need to do is look at iTunes, Zune, and other like music/movie delivery systems, and see how they impacted the music industry, look why people have chosen to purchase music over pirating again. Pirating will always be there, and there is nothing you can do to completely get rid of it, so combat piracy with services that makes Pirating seem more of a hassle. Music is also on a different level, anybody can afford a $1 impulse buy, but what I see from those stores is people who have pirated music almost exclusively make a change and started to purchase their music. People don't mind paying for it, as long as they can get it with no hassle and with as little effort as possible. I think Dean hit it just right, reward early adopters with limited free DLC (that would make me buy a game day one if I could get a few extra dollars out of my purchase), reward new game buyers with some kind of discount for DLC/old game addons, or something like that, and don't worry about punishing used buyers/pirates. Sims3 had a great anti-piracy method (in theory, I don't know if they added any other controversial DRM in the game)... buy sims 3, log on to the internet just once to register the game and you get a free second neighborhood. Anyone who has a used copy/pirated copy can't access a free neighborhood so they either have to buy it, or do without. Don't cut stuff out of the game, but add extra fun in a new purchase that is at little to no cost extra to the developer. I really think there needs to be a better delivery method for games as well. Steam is almost 100% what we need, a few tweaks and I would say its the games version of iTunes. Make something that people want to use, that will make them change their minds from being a pirate to being a paying customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) @Dean. Yeah I did mean pre-owned. Oooops. To drag this back on topic... The problem with throwing in an old game is that it does nothing to encourage purchasing over piracy. If I can download the new game for free, I can definitely download the older game for free. EDIT: I quite like the idea of time limited free DLC, but I don't see how it would benefit genuine purchasers over pirates. Don't cut stuff out of the game, but add extra fun in a new purchase that is at little to no cost extra to the developer. The difference between cutting stuff and adding extras is just perception. I can pretty much guarantee that anything that touches the main story will be perceived as cut from the game, even if in pre DLC days it would have never existed, or been cut anyway never to be seen again. Edited January 31, 2012 by Thursday Next 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I think Dean hit it just right, reward early adopters with limited free DLC (that would make me buy a game day one if I could get a few extra dollars out of my purchase), reward new game buyers with some kind of discount for DLC/old game addons, or something like that, and don't worry about punishing used buyers/pirates. How is that different from Cerberus Network/other project $10 stuff? *Edit* - @Thursday: I don't think you should try to make a better product by providing more content than you will get with piracy, because it's simply impossible, anything you release will be pirated. The closest you can get is online multiplayer. But you should try to focus on more positive "reward" type stuff, because that generates good will and makes people want to buy the game, even though they could pirate it. Even though I could pirate the added content I'm going to go "it's cool that they're doing that" and be more likely to buy the game, even if the added stuff is something I have no interest in. Edited January 31, 2012 by TheMightyEthan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Mass Effect 2 had the characters with the ship modelled around them, the ending coded to take into account both Zaeed and Kasumi being in your party (there's even a video around the web somewhere where the game was beaten with Kasumi in the party before her DLC was even released). So yeah as has been covered many times before, it's pretty hard to believe it wasn't cut content. I take issue with this viewpoint. I mean yes, it's clear they developed the game planning to have that content, but you don't know what would have happened in a pre-DLC world. Maybe the content would have been in the game, but maybe it just would have been cut altogether, and there would have just been some empty rooms on the Normandy with no mention of Kasumi or Zaeed. Well then that'd be lazy game design. And as I mentioned the other day, we can take a pretty good guess of what it'd be like if DLC wasn't around (for those not on Twitter I gave FFXIII-2 as an example of the post-DLC world, versus the 25 years of FF games where Omega and other super-bosses have popped up. It gives us a good idea that Omega isn't content that is added due to the wonders of DLC, but removed due to the money making opportunities of DLC) As a gamer I know myself when it feels like a game is missing something. If you as a game developer can't assuage that feeling, then you suck. "you're doing it wrong". The response of "well you don't have the balance sheets of the studio, or the minutes from our meeting etc to prove that this content wasn't all planned of a greater game then trimmed out to make DLC" just really kinda sucks. I don't know everything that goes into galaxy chocolate, but I know it tastes nicer than that herheys shit. And hey, maybe if studios and publishers weren't so damn fucking secretive control freaks we'd maybe know what's gone into making the game? I know jack shit of how Mass Effect 3 is being made but I can bloody tell you the name of the damn cameras The Hobbit is using (George, Ringo, Paul n John would be four of them). Maybe studios should walk us through the process of them making the games instead of acting like their the illuminati? edit: I could pirate Portal 2. I still ended up buying the PS3 version despite the fact I'd mainly end up on the Steam copy that came with it (and it cost more to buy than just the PC version too). Skyrim came with a nice map. Witcher 2 with a ton of goodies I showed off if you scout the thread. None of those can be pirated. Still if the studio is like "what can we do to piss off pirates" I repeat: They're doing it wrong. Reward the gamers that buy your stuff, don't attempt to punish those that won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbassman39 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I think Dean hit it just right, reward early adopters with limited free DLC (that would make me buy a game day one if I could get a few extra dollars out of my purchase), reward new game buyers with some kind of discount for DLC/old game addons, or something like that, and don't worry about punishing used buyers/pirates. How is that different from Cerberus Network/other project $10 stuff? . I think its almost the same as project $10, which I don't think is a negative thing if done right. Project $10 can be really good, and they used it in Bad Company 2 to get some extra multiplayer maps. They didn't cut out any, but they added like 2 or 3 extra maps if you bought it new. BF3 also had a good add-on with the Back to Karkand DLC, which btw is so meaty I would have paid $10 for with out thinking twice. Infact, on a separate note, that B2K pack for BF3 not only made me want to purchase BF3 new, but because of how much I think it added to the game, makes me more interested in buying more BF3 DLC, which is another benefit to adding stuff like that to new game buyers. As far as Cerberus Network, I don't think I've heard of it, so I can't comment on the similarities on that. @TN Yes, it can be very subjective, but most DLC doesn't change the main story line, and tends to be more of a side quest package or a sub-story. Of course this isn't always the case, but it seems to be the most common practice of DLC. Edited January 31, 2012 by madbassman39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchikoma Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I agree it's really about the perception of the DLC. Don't build in a receptacle for DLC, like closed doors, dialog trees that ask you to buy content, or characters who don't do their job until you buy them. Don't charge for things that used to be a given - like new colors or your second costume in a fighting game. Also, timing matters. If you release a game and then a week later sell DLC, it's hard to believe it wasn't just cut from the game (and it may not be, but not everyone knows the whole development process.) I know there's an urge/incentive to strike while the iron's hot, but you also need to let a game establish itself as a standalone product before selling must-have add ons for it. They could reward buyers with things that can't be pirated as easily as pure information. The big folding maps with GTA games. I think Lunar for PSX had a cloth map and a pendant. It doesn't have to be a big thing - even sticker sheets - as long as it's hard to get an equivalent experience through downloading it. Little appropriate collectible trinkets - maybe a keychain for a racing game, a plastic card magnifier for a detective game, etc. It's also kind of weird how rare it is to see mid-90s bonus content now - like sound tests, character designs, promo art, etc. I don't usually see these things marketed separately either, so I don't know why they're not added to options/bonus menus as long as they don't spoil the game (and they could also be unlockable...) That kind of thing could shift the perception a bit so people think the base game is actually 105% content and not 95% content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I know they were going for humor here but there is some element of truth here. Not just in piracy but in terms of software itself. I won't buy a CD burning application when I can download CDBurnerXP for example. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 The internet has spoiled me with free shit and Amazon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Amazon is the internet's Walmart, without the white trash connotations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Plus when you're an Amazon Prime member, you feel like this super elite customer. Like you're in a cool club, like Sam's Club. Bitch you gotta wait 4-5 days for your shipment to arrive? BITCH PLEASE, I WAIT 1-2 DAYS FOR FREE OR GET NEXT DAY SHIPPING FO' LIKE 3 EXTRA DOLLARS. I MAKE IT RAIN SHIPMENTS UP IN HEA' Not to mention all the free books I get for my kindle. I'm gonna read the entire Hunger Games trilogy for freezies. If video game publishers had some yearly membership say... 30 or 40? That gave you cheap shit, free DLC and free goodies ala Amazon Prime I'd be so down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 You mean like PS+? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Exactly like PS+ but something that benefits the developer/publisher. If it can somehow be used to lower prices on games, which is the biggest deal with piracy, then it's a win. Well either that or a Steam-like service for every console. Steam has been working due to all the deals and cheap sales they have. No idea how much of that goes to the developers themselves, but you have no option BUT to buy the game 'new' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hunger games is on amazon prime? I need to check that shiz out I guess. I pay for prime simply because I'm an amazon mom and it actually saves me more than the $80/year in diapers and other baby related things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 The entire trilogy is in the Kindle Owner Lending Library for free [if you own a Kindle device]. The lending library only works for the actual kindle device. Not an app on a laptop or phone. That's the only thing imho worthwhile in the lending library. The rest are best sellers books, but I'm only ever interested in reading sci-fi and fantasy and I don't think there's much there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Scratch that, lending library doesn't work with my android. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftwaffles Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Plus when you're an Amazon Prime member, you feel like this super elite customer. Like you're in a cool club, like Sam's Club. Bitch you gotta wait 4-5 days for your shipment to arrive? BITCH PLEASE, I WAIT 1-2 DAYS FOR FREE OR GET NEXT DAY SHIPPING FO' LIKE 3 EXTRA DOLLARS. I MAKE IT RAIN SHIPMENTS UP IN HEA' Not to mention all the free books I get for my kindle. I'm gonna read the entire Hunger Games trilogy for freezies. If video game publishers had some yearly membership say... 30 or 40? That gave you cheap shit, free DLC and free goodies ala Amazon Prime I'd be so down. Amazon Prime is amazing. I haven't torrented an e-book or a TV show in a long time, just because of Amazon Prime. I don't have Netflix (nor do I have any desire to get it), but I pay $40 a year for Prime with the student discount, but because of the Kindle learning library and the instant video. The libraries for both could be better, but they are growing, and right now they all have I really want. Once again, back to piracy being a service issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Oh, the lending library doesn't work on the apps? Guess I won't get prime then. Shame, I was really considering it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 The lending library is only a part of the Prime benefits. But yeah, Prime is mainly useful for me right now with the student 50% discount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I know there are other benefits, but the lending library is the only one I really care about. I don't mind waiting 3 days for packages instead of 2, and the VOD stuff doesn't really interest me either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftwaffles Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I know there are other benefits, but the lending library is the only one I really care about. I don't mind waiting 3 days for packages instead of 2, and the VOD stuff doesn't really interest me either. Ah, see, I live in the middle of nowhere as far as package delivery goes, so it becomes 2 days instead of 4 or 5 for me. To me, Prime seems mostly worth it for those that have a Kindle or watch a lot of instant video and order a lot of packages. Otherwise I'm not quite sure of the value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 geez, in the UK it's £49 and all you get is the expedited deilvery. No video, books, or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I know this has been beaten to death but I have a recent personal example. I thought about picking up Taito Legends 2 on the PC (mostly for Rayforce) and found that the PC version has this shitty piece of DRM bundled with it called StarForce. I can live without Rayforce or I can just get out my Saturn and buy the Saturn version if I must have it. The rest of the games I can enjoy on the $5 PS2 version. DRM , in my opinion equals more lost sales than piracy (at least for little old me) I understand others will pirate but either way, it's a lost sale. It's also a BIG reason why I would choose a console version over a PC version. At least Steam's DRM is unobtrusive and I don't have a fear of it crushing my hard drive and corrupting all my data. Edited February 1, 2012 by Battra92 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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