Piracy

[Waldorf and Statler]

God damn. I'm a pirate with movies and music, so I really don't know why I can be so disgusted with gaming piracy. It is very hypocritical and I admit that, but still. Something is really pissing me off. Maybe stuff like artists nowadays who are still in record deals making most of their money via concerts, or movies I'll probably only watch once again making most of their money via movie ticket sales. And I contribute to both of those. Gaming on the other hand just has game sales for its income. And developers don't really have another medium to get a healthy amount of sales from unless they outright sold the games themselves for a cheaper price.

 

I really am disgusted with gaming piracy as hypocritical as that is due to me supporting the other industries in one way or another where the artists make the most money.

[TheMightyEthan]

[Strangelove]

Well, all videogames have is videogames. Videogames and dlc. And a lot of people HATE dlc. That's how game companies make extra money though. You either succeed in a big way or fail miserably. There is little inbetween.

 

On the other hand, musicians have album sales, singles sales, concerts, merchandise, and all sort of other sellout shit like commercials, branding and whoring out your name. There are tons of options to make money. Videogame developers dont have that many options and the ones they do have aren't as popular. You can get a a videogame tshirt, but theyre not as commonplace as a band tshirt.

 

Movies on the other hand have superinflated prices at theaters(3D and IMAX are scams, as cool as they are), TONS of merch when it comes to those huge big budget action shit, dvd/bluray sales, and streaming licensing.

 

An actor, director, producer or musician makes a bad film or album and they can just try again. Thats an option that is almost completely gone in the gaming industry.

 

CoD tries to make a licensed headset or Mass Effect a licensed keyboard and we all cry and bitch about how it's shitty sellout crap. Fans of videogames don't like that kind of stuff, while film and music thrives on it. Even if the product is crap, the fact that its licensed is something people like. But gamers dont fall for that shit...yet.

Not to mention that videogames are always supplementary to film and music. Videogames WORK for the film and music industry, hardly ever the other way around. Theyre not equal.

 

Shit, we still cant get rid of Keanu Reeves. He does one thing - act. That's his job, to act. And he can't fucking do it. But he still makes films and makes money. But the guys who make Wipeout are gone. Wipeout is amazing.

The videogame industry is harsh.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

God damn. I'm a pirate with movies and music, so I really don't know why I can be so disgusted with gaming piracy. It is very hypocritical and I admit that, but still. Something is really pissing me off. Maybe stuff like artists nowadays who are still in record deals making most of their money via concerts, or movies I'll probably only watch once again making most of their money via movie ticket sales. And I contribute to both of those. Gaming on the other hand just has game sales for its income. And developers don't really have another medium to get a healthy amount of sales from unless they outright sold the games themselves for a cheaper price.

 

I really am disgusted with gaming piracy as hypocritical as that is due to me supporting the other industries in one way or another where the artists make the most money.

 

I aim this disgust at the industry rather than the pirates. Sure, there's plenty of pirate douchebags who never buy games that could. However, what happened with music is that piracy became rampant and tons of new things popped up that didn't exist before. Suddenly we had iTunes, which people bitched about it until it was DRM-Free, amongst countless other options. Nowadays we have Bandcamp, which has everything from 24-bit FLAC down to whatever you want, and only takes 15%. It's not tied to any service or platform: it's all in the browser. It's beautiful. Music piracy has also led to a greater awareness about how much artists get screwed over by major labels and ways to support the artist rather than the industry.

 

The game industry is only now starting to get to the point where we're seeing any sort of changes. Obviously, the big companies have not reacted well: DRM, shady business models, etc. I don't think any of these issues are going to be resolved this generation. We have no idea what next-gen will be like in this regard. Sony, MS, and Nintendo still have too much control because unlike the music or movie industry you need certain hardware to be able to enjoy certain things. Imagine if Paramount had their own DVD player and that's the only thing you could use to play Paramount movies?

[MasterDex]

This is where cloud gaming could come in, I think. Now, hear me out, I'm not saying I'd like this idea from a consumer PoV but from a developer PoV, it seems that it might be an attractive option.

 

So let's say that by the second half of the next console generation that network infrastructure has gotten to the point that game streaming is viable and competitive (compared to other options) for the consumer and Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo have established or begun to establish their own cloud gaming services. It might then be worthwhile to investigate whether limited streaming exclusivity (like a cinema run) is a viable option for keeping initial profits high before releasing a boxed/'for-keeps' version down the line.

Edited August 22, 2012 by MasterDex

[fuchikoma]

Shit, we still cant get rid of Keanu Reeves. He does one thing - act. That's his job, to act. And he can't fucking do it. But he still makes films and makes money. But the guys who make Wipeout are gone. Wipeout is amazing.

The videogame industry is harsh.

 

Aren't they Sony, "Studio Liverpool" now? I know CoLD SToRAGE is still kicking around doing his own thing...

 

 

Sony, MS, and Nintendo still have too much control because unlike the music or movie industry you need certain hardware to be able to enjoy certain things. Imagine if Paramount had their own DVD player and that's the only thing you could use to play Paramount movies?

 

They sort of did... it was infamously terrible. Still, I sort of prefer the walled garden approach on consoles - you just have to hope that the monarchy is benevolent. It is really great how you can lock-in to a platform, make your investment up front, and from then on, almost anything with the console's name on it "just works," exactly as it did for the developers. People who want flexibility still have wide options on PC and Android, but personally even as someone who troubleshoots stuff like that for a living, I prefer the peace of mind of consoles (troubleshooting, upgrading, malicious DRM, etc) even at the cost of graphics flexibility.

[deanb]

@fuchikoma: Yeah, Studio Liverpool got shut down today.

Also does that mean DVD players that say they support DivX don't mean the codec if you were to burn your own discs, but a special DVD format. How confusing. Also TIL.

 

As for Ubi's figures: Yeah most likely pulled out of their arse. It's so rare for developers and publishers to come out with these figures then point to their working out.

ACR sold 7 million copies as of February this year. Now even if we were to assume that just 200K of those copies were sold on PC, a rather mediocre amount, that'd put it at nearly 3.8million pirated copies, over half of the overall sales of the game. To put PC sales any higher and the piracy rate spirals astronomically. 3.8million is 10% of the total Steam userbase, and even larger chunk of the userbase that could amply play Ubisofts titles.

 

 

And FDS is pretty much spot on, movie and music industry adapted to combat piracy by knocking out lossless music, triple play blu-rays, whereas games industry moves to skinner box F2P. F2P has generally been reported to have much higher profit rates than other forms of games, and given that there's also the "oh it's free it doesn't matter if it's a bit naf" mentality, it also helps reduce development costs too. That's why developers like shifting to F2P. There's a kid earning $200K on making hats for TF2. Valve earn a pretty penny of that and all the other hat transactions. Piracy is like the get out of jail free card. "Why do you have horrible DRM" "Because of piracy" "Why is your game now gotten $200 of hidden charges" "Because of piracy". Nobody seems to want to hugely question it, if you question their piracy stuff then you must hate the industry. And it's a pain in the ass to get hold of all the data to refute it too, especially when publishers hold their sales facts n figures so close.

[fuchikoma]

@fuchikoma: Yeah, Studio Liverpool got shut down today.

WTF... I loved Psygnosis, and really thought SL was nailing it lately with the last couple Wipeouts. (It's up to you now, Santa Monica...)

 

Also does that mean DVD players that say they support DivX don't mean the codec if you were to burn your own discs, but a special DVD format. How confusing. Also TIL.

 

No, but the real answer is still really confusing if I remember it correctly. DivX is the codec. DIVX is the disc format, which is completely and utterly dead now. DivX was originally an "MPEG 4" codec, hacked from Microsoft's MPEG 4 codec for WMV movies (or ASF at the time I guess.) This one would work on AVI too. The guys who made the hack of MS' codec called it "DivX," I guess in mockery of DIVX, and it was technically illegal, but still easy to find. It's worth noting that it's not REAL "MPEG 4" that we use today (h.263, h.264). Later, a company made an official, legal, legit DivX codec, beginning at version 4.

 

Because I know some people here are in their early to mid 20s, I'll add that this was kind of the emergence of common codec formats on PCs. In the late 90s, I still preferred Intel's Indeo 5 as it had low CPU usage, even on very high res movies, and very low artifacting. As late as the mid 90s, if you got a movie... it could be in any format. CinePak was popular with Quicktime users, before Sorenson blew it away. There were various MJPEG-based codecs, all unique and incompatible with one another. It wasn't even that uncommon to get a movie encoded in a video card vendor specific codec, because that's what the capture software happened to use. Sometimes you'd get a video and just have to throw it away because there was no telling what it was in. Sometimes, you'd even find something uncompressed, at like 160x120 at 10fps. It's so easy these days! (Except h.264 with 10-bit colour... *grumble*)

 

And now for something completely different...

Edited August 22, 2012 by fuchikoma

[TheMightyEthan]

I remember when like 90% of the porn available was only in RealMedia formats...

 

*shudder*

[excel_excel]

Well, all videogames have is videogames. Videogames and dlc. And a lot of people HATE dlc. That's how game companies make extra money though. You either succeed in a big way or fail miserably. There is little inbetween.

 

On the other hand, musicians have album sales, singles sales, concerts, merchandise, and all sort of other sellout shit like commercials, branding and whoring out your name. There are tons of options to make money. Videogame developers dont have that many options and the ones they do have aren't as popular. You can get a a videogame tshirt, but theyre not as commonplace as a band tshirt.

 

Movies on the other hand have superinflated prices at theaters(3D and IMAX are scams, as cool as they are), TONS of merch when it comes to those huge big budget action shit, dvd/bluray sales, and streaming licensing.

 

An actor, director, producer or musician makes a bad film or album and they can just try again. Thats an option that is almost completely gone in the gaming industry.

 

CoD tries to make a licensed headset or Mass Effect a licensed keyboard and we all cry and bitch about how it's shitty sellout crap. Fans of videogames don't like that kind of stuff, while film and music thrives on it. Even if the product is crap, the fact that its licensed is something people like. But gamers dont fall for that shit...yet.

Not to mention that videogames are always supplementary to film and music. Videogames WORK for the film and music industry, hardly ever the other way around. Theyre not equal.

 

Shit, we still cant get rid of Keanu Reeves. He does one thing - act. That's his job, to act. And he can't fucking do it. But he still makes films and makes money. But the guys who make Wipeout are gone. Wipeout is amazing.

The videogame industry is harsh.

 

I agree with what you've said but its worth pointing out that bad films don't hurt the directors or actors, for example Michael Bay and the abysmal Transformers movies, its unpopular films that do, a bit like Nicholas Cage and his varying degrees of bizarre films he's chosen to be part of. These days he's just not much of a box office draw.

 

I think no matter the complaints, there's a portion of gamers that do buy licensed peripherals and merch. All that CoD stuff sells, even that Mass Effect stuff sells, hell look at how many people complained about Diablo 3 and its DRM, yet it'll probably be the biggest selling PC game of the year. I really think lesser games devs and publishers should be trying to get more merch out there. a lot more should have web stores and be selling stuff. There should be a clothes section in Gamestop. I know that sounds almost eye rollingly cliche but they've already got dvds and cds for chrissakes, at least this would actually be licensed gaming stuff.

 

Anyway, I can understand why companies like Ubisoft frantically grasp piracy percentages. Its just easy to justify for them and make them look like 'victims'. "Look we've released all these games on PC and we are getting massive piracy numbers! What more can we do?" I really think that Ubisoft just need to submit to Steam and release their games with Steamworks. Or even better yet. Release a retail version with their usual DRM and release a Steam version that would obviously be more expensive but would use Steamworks. I bet anything they'd make more money. The release of a DRM free version of Assassins Creed 1 on GOG was a start, but paying 20 bucks for a 5 year old title with no drm is a bit much. They really seem to want to be like EA in regards to PC gaming, having their own store, releasing F2P games, but they just aren't on EA's level in terms of all the licenses and franchises and devs they own.

[TheMightyEthan]

I agree with what you've said but its worth pointing out that bad films don't hurt the directors or actors, for example Michael Bay and the abysmal Transformers movies, its unpopular films that do, a bit like Nicholas Cage and his varying degrees of bizarre films he's chosen to be part of. These days he's just not much of a box office draw.

 

I don't really understand your point, the same can be said of any media: it doesn't matter how "good" it is, it only matters how many people buy it.

[Johnny]

Shit, we still cant get rid of Keanu Reeves. He does one thing - act. That's his job, to act. And he can't fucking do it. But he still makes films and makes money. But the guys who make Wipeout are gone. Wipeout is amazing.

The videogame industry is harsh.

Sure, that studio may be gone, but the people who worked there do not just vanish into thin air. Most of them will get hired by other developers.

[excel_excel]

I agree with what you've said but its worth pointing out that bad films don't hurt the directors or actors, for example Michael Bay and the abysmal Transformers movies, its unpopular films that do, a bit like Nicholas Cage and his varying degrees of bizarre films he's chosen to be part of. These days he's just not much of a box office draw.

 

I don't really understand your point, the same can be said of any media: it doesn't matter how "good" it is, it only matters how many people buy it.

 

Oh was just pointing out how Strangelove said bad films don't hurt directors or actors etc. I was just saying that bad doesn't hurt anyone, its unpopular films that damage those who make them.

[TheMightyEthan]

Shit, we still cant get rid of Keanu Reeves. He does one thing - act. That's his job, to act. And he can't fucking do it. But he still makes films and makes money. But the guys who make Wipeout are gone. Wipeout is amazing.

The videogame industry is harsh.

 

Sure, that studio may be gone, but the people who worked there do not just vanish into thin air. Most of them will get hired by other developers.

 

But it was the team that made the game, and the "team" is gone (unless they do the thing where a bunch of them all go off to form a new studio).

[Mal]

I know some of you folks are fine with pirating if the media is not available for purchase in the consumer's region but what about if it is available but not in the format you want? Note, it is available in the format you want but its in a different language or the ones that did provide it no longer do for whatever reason.

 

Case in point, my current Ys addiction. I, II, Ark and Seven are indeed available for me to purchase here but for the PSP. Ark is not available new from what I can tell so purchasing them used does nothing for the publisher. I, II and Ark does have PC versions but they never came out officially in English from Japan. Seven just got a Chinese PC version.

There is also a remake of IV coming for the Vita... which complicate things further, I think. This one current doesn't have a PC version but I will bet one will happen somehow despite the Vita's touch controls.

 

I could get them as they are now when I get the money but I would hate to since I know the versions I want exist in some form. As it stands now, I would have to get the PSP and the Vita. Good platforms but expensive as hell and I know they'll suffer the same fate as my Wii did with me.

[TheMightyEthan]

I'd say if it's available for a platform you already own, just not the one you would prefer, then you should go ahead and buy it on the platform you own. If you don't own the platform already... that's tough. I don't know.

[Cyber Rat]

Buy it for the platform you can play it on and pirate it on a different platform? I'm not really sure myself, to be honest...

Edited August 27, 2012 by Cyber Rat

[TheMightyEthan]

lol, yeah, that's a thought: buy the PSP version and then pirate the PC version to actually play.

[Cyber Rat]

I actually believe things like Sony's cross-buy and Steam's "own it on both PC and Mac" should be the rule rather than the exception. If you own it one on platform, you should own it on all viable platforms. Of course, that ain't happening any time soon for a multitude of reasons.

 

Still, I don't see anything wrong with pirating an Xbox360 version of a game you've already paid for on the PS3.

[Thursday Next]

I actually believe things like Sony's cross-buy and Steam's "own it on both PC and Mac" should be the rule rather than the exception. If you own it one on platform, you should own it on all viable platforms. Of course, that ain't happening any time soon for a multitude of reasons.

 

Still, I don't see anything wrong with pirating an Xbox360 version of a game you've already paid for on the PS3.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Most of the cost is in creating the game, the art the physics, the audio. Sending it down pipes or putting it in boxes is a tiny fraction of the cost. So you should pay for the content, like Amazon does with Kindle. Same book on iPad, Kindle hardware, PC, Android etc. You pay for the content.

 

Of course the problem is the "platform". For Amazon, "Kindle" is the platform, the platform exists on various types of hardware. For games, the platform and the hardware are synonymous.

 

Much as everyone likes to rag on EA (not always without good cause), they would actually like Origin to become Kindle for videogames. You buy your game direct from Origin, and it gets delivered to whatever you want wherever you want it. There's a few obstacles to that of course (namely Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo).

[Cyber Rat]

I actually believe things like Sony's cross-buy and Steam's "own it on both PC and Mac" should be the rule rather than the exception. If you own it one on platform, you should own it on all viable platforms. Of course, that ain't happening any time soon for a multitude of reasons.

 

Still, I don't see anything wrong with pirating an Xbox360 version of a game you've already paid for on the PS3.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Most of the cost is in creating the game, the art the physics, the audio. Sending it down pipes or putting it in boxes is a tiny fraction of the cost. So you should pay for the content, like Amazon does with Kindle. Same book on iPad, Kindle hardware, PC, Android etc. You pay for the content.

 

Of course the problem is the "platform". For Amazon, "Kindle" is the platform, the platform exists on various types of hardware. For games, the platform and the hardware are synonymous.

 

Much as everyone likes to rag on EA (not always without good cause), they would actually like Origin to become Kindle for videogames. You buy your game direct from Origin, and it gets delivered to whatever you want wherever you want it. There's a few obstacles to that of course (namely Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo).

 

You have to start somewhere, so would be nice if it was at least "Buy on console > get free PC version" for now, since there are fewer hurdles there. Heck, you don't even have to give people a Steam or Origin code if you're not into either of those. The GOG version of the Witcher 2 is DRM-free and is basically given to you if you bought it anywhere else (like Steam). Maybe as we go farther into the digital age, console manufacturers will be forced to resort to this, but right now, they have the luxury of going "No deal." Heck, we can't even get cross-platform gameplay working properly because of these disputes...

Edited August 28, 2012 by Cyber Rat

[deanb]

It's funny that the main folks against having cross platform support are the ones with the most cross platform infrastructure in place. To such a degree playing a GFWL game on PC will lock out the person playing Netflix in the other room. They have stores on three platforms, XNA can output to all three too.

[Thursday Next]

I actually believe things like Sony's cross-buy and Steam's "own it on both PC and Mac" should be the rule rather than the exception. If you own it one on platform, you should own it on all viable platforms. Of course, that ain't happening any time soon for a multitude of reasons.

 

Still, I don't see anything wrong with pirating an Xbox360 version of a game you've already paid for on the PS3.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Most of the cost is in creating the game, the art the physics, the audio. Sending it down pipes or putting it in boxes is a tiny fraction of the cost. So you should pay for the content, like Amazon does with Kindle. Same book on iPad, Kindle hardware, PC, Android etc. You pay for the content.

 

Of course the problem is the "platform". For Amazon, "Kindle" is the platform, the platform exists on various types of hardware. For games, the platform and the hardware are synonymous.

 

Much as everyone likes to rag on EA (not always without good cause), they would actually like Origin to become Kindle for videogames. You buy your game direct from Origin, and it gets delivered to whatever you want wherever you want it. There's a few obstacles to that of course (namely Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo).

 

You have to start somewhere, so would be nice if it was at least "Buy on console > get free PC version" for now, since there are fewer hurdles there. Heck, you don't even have to give people a Steam or Origin code if you're not into either of those. The GOG version of the Witcher 2 is DRM-free and is basically given to you if you bought it anywhere else (like Steam). Maybe as we go farther into the digital age, console manufacturers will be forced to resort to this, but right now, they have the luxury of going "No deal." Heck, we can't even get cross-platform gameplay working properly because of these disputes...

 

I'll suggest that. See how it goes. It should be perfectly doable to put an Origin code in a console box. Especially when the redemption rate won't come anywhere near 100%.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

(Portal 2 on PS3)

[Mal]

It has been well over a year since what happened with Portal 2 happened. Its was sweet to play with my brother who had a PS3 but no PC able to play Portal 2.

 

I haven't heard anything like it since.