Piracy

[Johnny]

Bottom line, there are loads of reasons, excuses, justifications and what have you for piracy, they all prove one thing, that on some level you accept that what you're doing is, in some way, wrong. Otherwise why try to justify it?

Please keep your quite frankly terrible psychoanalysis out of this. "He's defending himself, so he's got to be guilty"?

We try to explain it because nobody likes having every white knight on the internet pointing fingers and going "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT YOU EVIL FUCKER!"

Especially when said white knights then stand in line paying overprice for fucking CODBLOPS, a game Activision has now released three times (CoD4, MW2 and BLOPS) in the span of four years and are sucking incredible ammounts of cash out of the industry. Cash that could have been used to fund untold interesting games.

The mainstream games industry is bloated as fuck and it's attempts to try and make it seem like our friends while shoveling out games made to specification in order to gain a sale from the mindless sheep are incredibly weak.

In comparison to the state of the mainstream games industry, fucking Hollywood looks relatable.

I purchase what games I can afford - too many, in fact - and then I get demonized for wanting to look around and try games out before deciding which ones to support. Insulted by CODBLOPS-buying sheep.

 

---- EDITED because I realized I wasn't quite done and doubleposting is evil ----

 

By the way, if we're gonna use ad hominem, then why are white knights so eager to stand up and put blame on everyone? Is it because, maybe, deep inside, they know that paying for overproduced, overpriced games designed not out of artistic joy, but out of a desire to make a profit, really isn't as morally pure as they want it to be?

But, of course, that would be a completely retarded line of reasoning.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Johnny

[Thursday Next]

It's different than theft because with theft you're being deprived of something. Someone pirating the game who wasn't going to buy it anyway (again, assume for the sake of argument, I acknowledge the practical problems with this assumption) doesn't take anything away from anyone else. So I still don't see how the dev/publisher/whatever is actually hurt.

 

And numbers don't matter. Even if it's 500,000,000 people pirating the game who weren't going to buy it anyway, NONE of those would have been sales (with this assumption which, again, I acknowledge is not an accurate description of the world, but I'm trying to argue the theory) then there haven't been any sales lost.

 

Whether or not the pirates have a "right" to play the game (I agree that they don't) is a completely separate issue from this question.

 

Ok, in that hypothetical realm, where someone would not by the game under any circumstances, then yes, they have not "hurt" the developer directly. However, as there is no way for the developer to know what the pirate is thinking they will look at that download as forming part of the "demand" for the title and as such will perceive that download as a loss. A form of psychological hurt if you will.

 

 

Bottom line, there are loads of reasons, excuses, justifications and what have you for piracy, they all prove one thing, that on some level you accept that what you're doing is, in some way, wrong. Otherwise why try to justify it?

Please keep your quite frankly terrible psychoanalysis out of this. "He's defending himself, so he's got to be guilty"?

We try to explain it because nobody likes having every white knight on the internet pointing fingers and going "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT YOU EVIL FUCKER!"

Especially when said white knights then stand in line paying overprice for fucking CODBLOPS, a game Activision has now released three times (CoD4, MW2 and BLOPS) in the span of four years and are sucking incredible ammounts of cash out of the industry. Cash that could have been used to fund untold interesting games.

The mainstream games industry is bloated as fuck and it's attempts to try and make it seem like our friends while shoveling out games made to specification in order to gain a sale from the mindless sheep are incredibly weak.

In comparison to the state of the mainstream games industry, fucking Hollywood looks relatable.

I purchase what games I can afford - too many, in fact - and then I get demonized for wanting to look around and try games out before deciding which ones to support. Insulted by CODBLOPS-buying sheep.

 

---- EDITED because I realized I wasn't quite done and doubleposting is evil ----

 

By the way, if we're gonna use ad hominem, then why are white knights so eager to stand up and put blame on everyone? Is it because, maybe, deep inside, they know that paying for overproduced, overpriced games designed not out of artistic joy, but out of a desire to make a profit, really isn't as morally pure as they want it to be?

But, of course, that would be a completely retarded line of reasoning.

 

It wasn't ad hominem, an ad hominem attack is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. Where the premise is that "Piracy is morally wrong." the belief of a pirate is a key part of the premise as "morally wrong" is a totally subjective attribute. I merely cited that the fact that almost everyone who admits to piracy does so with a caveat of "but only to demo it", "because games are too expensive", or some such excuse indicates that pirates feel guilt on some level and therefore also feel that piracy is at least a morally grey area if not black and white wrong.

 

On the other hand, your suggestion that in one part of my post I used an ad hominem attack and am a "CODBLOPS sheep" and a white knight and as such my thoughts on the issue are to be struck from the record are themselves ad hominem and do not invalidate the rest of my argument even if any of the accusations were true.

 

No one in this thread said anything about pirates being "evil fuckers", there really is no need to go shouting and swearing. I also never said that anyone who was defending themselves "was guilty" I said that they accept that what they are doing is in some way wrong.

 

I am not white knighting, I have never said that game publishers are altruists, and I have never owned a copy of Black Ops, in fact, the last CoD I bought was CoD4 MW.

[Johnny]

On the other hand, your suggestion that in one part of my post I used an ad hominem attack and am a "CODBLOPS sheep" and a white knight and as such my thoughts on the issue are to be struck from the record are themselves ad hominem and do not invalidate the rest of my argument even if any of the accusations were true.

 

No one in this thread said anything about pirates being "evil fuckers", there really is no need to go shouting and swearing. I also never said that anyone who was defending themselves "was guilty" I said that they accept that what they are doing is in some way wrong.

 

I am not white knighting, I have never said that game publishers are altruists, and I have never owned a copy of Black Ops, in fact, the last CoD I bought was CoD4 MW.

If you would be so kind as to properly read my post, you'd notice that I attacked you directly at specifically two points. The first being when I told you to keep terrible psychoanalysis out of this, and the second being when I not so subtly accused you of using ad hominems.

 

The part you think is me accusing you of being a sheep, a white knight, or standing in line to purchase CODBLOPS is actually the part where I try to offer an explanation as to why pirates like me get so defensive.

 

Do you remember the gaming press and large portions of the gaming community's reaction when Roger Ebert said he did not believe games could ever be art? Pretty defensive, right?

Well, now imagine that coming from pretty much everyone in the industry, but instead of claiming your hobby to be lesser than that of movies, they make you the scapegoat for everything bad in the industry while saying you should go to jail.

I'm surprised pirates in general aren't more defensive than this.

 

As for feeling bad over pirating... Hah. I feel bad over spending too much goddamned money on games, all because I sympathize with some bedroom indie developer with more imagination than the entire ex-Infinity Ward team put together.

 

I admit I should maybe double-check my usage of terms like ad hominem before using them. I was pissed off and neglected to do so. My bad.

I am not sure if what you did can be accurately described as ad hominem, but it's still fucking bullshit, no matter if the term fits or not.

[Johnny]

I was gonna edit this into my last post, but for some reason I can't seem to find any edit button. I assume it is deactivated after a time - by the way, I can still delete the post instead, which I find pretty funny. Oh well.

I am not white knighting, I have never said that game publishers are altruists, and I have never owned a copy of Black Ops, in fact, the last CoD I bought was CoD4 MW.

If I were to actually accuse you of something, I'd be pretty obvious about it instead of trying to include you in an explanation as to why pirates are generally so overly defensive.

For example, in my last post I'm accusing you of not reading my post properly. In the one before that I'm accusing you of ad hominem (as I've already admitted, pretty foolishly) and of pretty terrible psychoanalysis.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Johnny

[Wrayfield]

I stopped pirating games when I started working for the industry. Very simple decision of not shooting myself in the foot, though I probably wouldn't buy most of the games I work(ed) on, my personal perception of it changed. Though I know quite a few colleagues who still do it on a massive scale.

 

I stopped pirating music when I realised that whatever I pirate I hardly ever listen to. A strange sense of devaluation where stuff I haven't paid for isn't worth that much. There are a few exceptions to that, but really just a few. This, strangely, only applies to music -- I rarely had that problem with games back in the day.

 

I still download US and UK films and series, albeit on a fairly small scale -- not that that ever was an excuse -- for the simple fact that I don't want to wait until they're available in the country I currently live in.

 

In general, it helps to not be a student anymore and be able to make my own purchase decisions. This is not to say students can't, but their financial situation often dictates such decisions, at least such was the case with me. These days, I've grown quite a bit disappointed with a lot of AAA titles out there so the pure consumer in me decided not to shell out the money for most of the stuff on day 1 anymore -- few exceptions aside.

 

It also helps that I am not much of a multiplayer gamer and generally patient to wait for price drops (unless it's post-apocalyptic, a weakness I'm unable to cure myself from).

 

PS: @Dean

Funny Adobe story for you: One Indian vendor we used on a project (not game-related, but still development and localisation) also did a pretty big project for Adobe. When they delivered the stuff, Adobe was obviously aware of the fact that their vendor pirated their stuff and kindly asked them to purchase "at least a few licenses" for the next assignment. I'm sure the reaction would be different had it been a US company or so, but it still shows a certain sense of realism on Adobe's side.

[Thursday Next]

I was gonna edit this into my last post, but for some reason I can't seem to find any edit button. I assume it is deactivated after a time - by the way, I can still delete the post instead, which I find pretty funny. Oh well.

I am not white knighting, I have never said that game publishers are altruists, and I have never owned a copy of Black Ops, in fact, the last CoD I bought was CoD4 MW.

If I were to actually accuse you of something, I'd be pretty obvious about it instead of trying to include you in an explanation as to why pirates are generally so overly defensive.

For example, in my last post I'm accusing you of not reading my post properly. In the one before that I'm accusing you of ad hominem (as I've already admitted, pretty foolishly) and of pretty terrible psychoanalysis.

 

 

Ok, this is getting a little personal and I didn't intend that. I incorrectly inferred that your description of white knight, codblop, sheeple was directed at me. For that I apologise.

 

As for the Robert Ebert thing, a rebuttal is not a generally defensive attitude. It was a direct response to an accusation. If you are asked the (debatable given the negative connotation of the word "pirate") neutral question "Do you pirate games?" and the response is "Yes, but..." and then some form of excuse, it implies, or rather, I infer, that you are of the belief that piracy is either wrong or at least perceived as wrong by the person asking, or the audience listening to your response.

 

If someone said "Have you heard the latest Muse song?" I would reply "Yes." If you said "Have you heard the latest Justin Bieber song?" I would reply "Yes, but only because I was getting a lift to the station from my younger sister and she had it on in the car."

 

I don't feel the need to defend listening to Muse because they are awesome on a stick. I feel the need to defend hearing a Bieber song because I know that listening to it is morally wrong.

 

Admittedly this speaks more to my mentality than to that of every other person in the world, but as I'm the only person whose thoughts I can read, I kind of have to project that attitude onto the wider populace even if it is inaccurate.

[Johnny]

I infer, that you are of the belief that piracy is either wrong or at least perceived as wrong by the person asking, or the audience listening to your response.

Bold text is key. Yes, it is true that pirates defend themselves because the likelyhood that someone will attack them for admitting to piracy is very high.

Wether the pirate himself considers it wrong on some or all levels, we can not be sure without asking him.

 

Additionally I'd like to offer my apologies for responding so emotionally to your original post. Your attempt to analyze pirates who defend themselves pre-emptively, and therefore by extension myself, angered me.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Johnny

[deanb]

I stopped pirating music when I realised that whatever I pirate I hardly ever listen to. A strange sense of devaluation where stuff I haven't paid for isn't worth that much. There are a few exceptions to that, but really just a few. This, strangely, only applies to music -- I rarely had that problem with games back in the day.

-snip-

I still download US and UK films and series, albeit on a fairly small scale -- not that that ever was an excuse -- for the simple fact that I don't want to wait until they're available in the country I currently live in.

-snip-

 

PS: @Dean

Funny Adobe story for you: One Indian vendor we used on a project (not game-related, but still development and localisation) also did a pretty big project for Adobe. When they delivered the stuff, Adobe was obviously aware of the fact that their vendor pirated their stuff and kindly asked them to purchase "at least a few licenses" for the next assignment. I'm sure the reaction would be different had it been a US company or so, but it still shows a certain sense of realism on Adobe's side.

 

I've not pirated any music for ages. Spotify has pretty much seen to that. I mostly listen to game OSTs n older songs when I'm out walking about, and I top off my library with whatever albums my mum n sister pick up.

I grab TV series n such. I do buy some, but when it can be like £40 for a series it really turns you off. (For example I've only got the first few series of Smallville, if I'd got em all at original price on release it'd be about £400) Movies I grab too. Some I buy, some I don't. When we have a system in place that allows you to peruse at your leisure any film or such you have a mild interest in, then why not use it? Especially of late since I'd love to go to cinema, but it seems my two housemates don't and I'm certainly not up for going on my tod. So apart from going out and splashing £15 or so a pop on blu-rays on the chance a film can be good, I grab it from torrents. If it's good I buy it or add it to wishlishts. If it's bad I just toss it in the recycle bin. Sometimes it's bad but I know others who'd like it and I'll pick it up on DVD for them.

I love just running a movie or TV show in the background while working. And I certainly don't have the funds to supply myself with 3hrs or so a days worth of movies/TV. iPlayer picks up the slack great, but even then it's not all great.

 

Adobe are in a strange position where piracy helps them. It's their marketing plan. How many of you see adverts for Photoshop? (say compared to Office), or exposed to it at work? (also compared to Office). I bet most folks aren't, but it's passed around so much via piracy it's become a household name. I bet most folks don't even know there's other alternatives out there. So if say some small business needs a bit of photo tweaking or something, then if they're gonna pick up a image package, it'll be Photoshop.

[Yantelope]

Adobe are in a strange position where piracy helps them. It's their marketing plan. How many of you see adverts for Photoshop? (say compared to Office), or exposed to it at work? (also compared to Office). I bet most folks aren't, but it's passed around so much via piracy it's become a household name. I bet most folks don't even know there's other alternatives out there. So if say some small business needs a bit of photo tweaking or something, then if they're gonna pick up a image package, it'll be Photoshop.

 

With software packages like Photoshop and AutoCAD where there is a steep learning curve the piracy helps a in a weird way because most people aren't going to take the time to learn multiple packages. Autodesk has even taken to letting people download full versions of the software from the site and just disabling the ability to save so that people can learn their software. Really you're just counting on the businesses to buy your software and not so much the individuals and piracy is much less common in the corporate world (at least in America).

[Johnny]

I've not pirated any music for ages. Spotify has pretty much seen to that.

Too bad spotify only has about half of what I listen to, and often in bad quality.

Until there is a spotify-style service for us with more obscure music tastes, I'll keep on storing a local music library on my media hard drive.

[deanb]

Still can't help taking those jabs at my music taste eh?

[Yantelope]

Also, copying your mom and sister's CDs still counts as piracy no?

Edited January 26, 2011 by Yantelope

[TheMightyEthan]

ITT: Dean admits to listening to girl music.

 

I used to pirate TV and movies a lot, but I basically stopped with TV once I got cable and a DVR (only time I ever download shows now is when the DVR misses it for some reason), and I stopped with movies when I got Netflix streaming. I've never bought a TV series on disc, cause they're just too goddamned expensive, but even at the height of my piracy I still bought quite a few movies.

[Yantelope]

I bought a TV tuner card for my PC and i was gonna use it to record episodes of the simpsons, edit out the commercials and then archive them. Then I discovered that someone had already done all that for me and I just needed to download them. I'm a bit confused why one is legal and the other isn't.

[deanb]

@Yante: Not so much. There's provisions for allowing you to share with friends n family. Or mix tapes n such back in the day would of required loads of litigation. It's kind of a loophole folks try to use in courts.

 

@TME: My mum n sisters tastes aren't too bad. Mostly just get the generic stuff off my mum, compilations n such, and my sister get's some of the indie stuff. I had a big HDD back in 1st year, we just kind of lumped our music collections together so I've got a huge variety of genres n such. It's also part of the reason I don't pirate much anymore. Years later I'm still whittling down those lists from the songs I don't like.

 

Also on the TV front I guess I should point out I can't really get a TV signal, so can't really watch anything expect stuff online.

[TheMightyEthan]

Why can't you get a TV signal?

[deanb]

Not good enough for digital. I do miss Dave.

I assume it'll get better when the switchover happens, but for now it seems like it's an area that'll need an external aerial, and I'm not sticking one of those up.

[TheMightyEthan]

I assume though, costs notwithstanding, that you could get cable or satellite if you wanted.

[deanb]

(aka Virgin or Sky)

We have Virgin for our internet, but given that I don't have £30 a month to spend to watch a few channels at a time, it's mostly hinging on "costs notwithstanding". Freeview is built into my tele cost nothing but an aerial and has more channels than I'd need. Discovery is about the only one I'd want from Sky/Virgin.

[Vintage]

I've not pirated any music for ages. Spotify has pretty much seen to that.

Too bad spotify only has about half of what I listen to, and often in bad quality.

Until there is a spotify-style service for us with more obscure music tastes, I'll keep on storing a local music library on my media hard drive.

 

have you people not heard of grooveshark? stream music on your comp set up a favorite list, playlist whatever. can't find what you want? upload it! taadaaa

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

that's far to much uploading, which means you have to have it downloaded in the first place, and it doesn't give you anywhere near the level of control a lot of us want. not to mention the low quality of streaming isn't a positive.

[Pirandello]

Just popping into this thread for a moment.

 

Did I pirate? Yes.

Do I still pirate? No.

 

Mostly due to the fact that I can finally use a goddamn credit card (which I received at the beginning of college) for all those freaking Steam sales. Then the parents found out that I was buying games on the credit card and ground me from buying games with it (it has a paper trail when I use it, so I can't lie and buy stuff anyways).

 

So, yeah.

 

At least at college I enjoy a blazing-fast internet connection. 10 gigs in 15 minutes!

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Isn't that a bit short-sighted? Now that you can't buy games are you going to pirate? What about the implications of what you just said? Do you think it's okay to pirate just because you're broke? Expand a little! (not a lot though, since so much has already been covered but it's always nice to hear a different viewpoint.)

[Pirandello]

No, I won't pirate anymore. I have years of hard cold cash saved up, just that there isn't technically a lot of retail stores (save for Gamestop, but they don't sell the PC games I want) around here. I find it a double-edged sword nowadays due to the fact that not many games make it on to my must-buy list anymore.

 

The nearest is 10 minutes to Best Buy, and I don't have a car. The only solution is to somehow worm the parents to go to Best Buy when I go home for the weekends, and they're usually suspicious whenever I go to any store that sells games.

 

Note that these are the kinds of parents who think videogames are as bad as being hooked on drugs.

 

EDIT: For reference, I don't pirate in college. I enjoy being able to play F2P games on a whim with my blazing fast connection. Shame about port forwarding, though.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Pirandello

[Enervation]

I used to pirate too, just some old things that I couldn't find anymore.

 

Like Throne of Darkness. It was before GoG came out though.