Piracy

[deanb]

"They're seeing their business as a content business, where the content is the thing that has value. This is not the case. The games industry, like all the arts, is about finding and interacting with fans, so that value comes from a relationship. "

 

The problem with this is that slow sales of a game very often lead to closures of studios. How can you build a relationship if your doors are closed when you can't pay rent? Also, I don't see why you can't put DRM on your game and still try to provide a very active community. Let's not forget that Valve uses DRM on everything on Steam but people don't hate them for it. I just don't think that removing DRM makes you sell more copies of a game unless the DRM is unusually strong like Spore or Assassin's Creed 2. Did we ever find out if those games sales were bad as a result of the DRM?

 

Why are you waiting 'til the games release to start building up the relationships? Start it during development. Get folks interested and part of it. Open Betas, bonuses for guys with you from the start.

As for DRM, some are good but a fair chunk are pretty bad. Steam is interesting in that it combines DRM and the relationship part. As beef and many others will say Steam isn't that intrusive. And it's about the only DRM that comes with additional features for the end user beyond just saying they have paid money for the game.

Anyway the post didn't necessarily dismiss the idea of having DRM, just that if it's cracked or whatever, don't worry about it. Instead of focusing your limited resources and efforts in fighting pirates which will both drive you mad and you may as well go stand at the beach n hold the tides at bay for all the good it'll do, you should instead focus on providing more of a community and positive relationship with customers. Which will both earn you good word of mouth and build up a customer base for your sequel or next game. Which second time around you may find some of the pirates pick up your game too.

 

Some of this isn't even much to do with piracy, it's just kind of some common sense mantra that'd be nice to see more often in the industry. Don't take the audience for granted, don't treat them as a number on the accounting sheets, don't stress over pirates more than the customers.

 

As for Ubisofts DRM? Getting hold of PC numbers is like drawing blood from a stone, but I'd guess the fact they stripped back on it's harshness a bit suggests sales might not of been as expected. (the way these things often go I'd guess the piracy rates were higher than before too)

 

 

@Beefy: tbh DRM very rarely stops a game going up for pirate. So DRM or not it's not going to increase or decrease the amount of copies that are pirated. All it means is there's a couple less steps required when installing the pirated game. Just means the legit game also has less hoops to go through.

Err maybe better wording would be: Whether your game has DRM or not, all games up on torrents are DRM-free regardless.

So I can't see it being a factor in how many times your game is pirated. However I would imagine games with heavy DRM, like Ubi games, having higher than normal downloads just because folks pirating out of spite, or getting a DRM-free copy that can run.

[TheMightyEthan]

I thought that Escapist video said it really well when it told developers "The pirates already offer a better price, don't let them give better service too."

[RockyRan]

Seriously, that Sterling guy can go fuck a dick.

 

Just look here:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33028/Newell_Valve_More_Profitable_Per_Employee_Than_Apple_Google.php

 

But OH NOES TEH PEECEE INDUSTRY IS SO NOT PROFEETABUL!! PULL TEH PLUG GAIZ, PEOPLE BEE PIRATING!! What a dumbass. What a complete, unadulterated dumbass in the purest sense. And the brick-for-brain yes-men twat commenters parroting his exact sentiments can shove a mouse up their ass too, they're contributing to the pitiful ignorance, spearheaded by this complete joke of a "blogger" (or "reporter" or "journalist" or whatever the fuck he calls himself, and he isn't any of those things so it doesn't even matter). The rampant ignorance followed by ignorant masses gobbling it up painfully reminds me of Fox News, and that's really what I think of Destructoid. It's the Fox News of video game media.

 

Simply put, people ignorant of the PC platform need to shut their asses. That guy clearly has no earthly CLUE what he's talking about, using an internal leak of an upcoming game as an impromptu non-sequitur rant about piracy of all things. How in the hell does this logic even make any sense? And of course let's not forget the incredibly simple-minded "IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE A FUCKING PIRATE" retort, which of course the monkey commenters proceeded to parrot. To claim that the PC industry is completely unprofitable when services like Steam and companies like Valve are fucking STARING AT HIM in the face, is nothing short of complete bullshit.

[Cyber Rat]

I'm really tired of the "Gaming is a luxury, not a right. If you can't pay it, don't play it." argument. I don't know, do developers (not publishers) really like to hear that 200 people bought their game more than a 1000 people enjoyed their game? Gaming is needlessly expensive as it is, I don't really think it should be reserved to some business elite or, well, anyone.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Needlessly? Gaming has gotten cheaper over time.

[Cyber Rat]

I don't believe games warrant a $60 price tag. And the argument that it's gotten cheaper than it was doesn't make me think I should be grateful. Technology always becomes cheaper over time and games used to be plastic bricks, so that increased the cost as well.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I think some do and some don't. It's like going to the movies. Regardless of budget, they all cost the same. Either way, accounting for inflation, gaming has gotten cheaper and not more expensive over time.

[Mal]

Gaming may be getting cheaper over time but it certainly doesn't feel like it for me, at this age. Hell, from last gen to current gen, price for a new game jumped $10. I was taken back when I was first out shopping for a PS3 game.

 

The word to take away from this post is "feel".

[deanb]

http://www.formspring.me/KieronGillen/q/163656502517730156

 

Kieron is an Ex-RPS writer.

[RockyRan]

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2011/02/opinion_game_developers_should.php

 

It brings up a lot of interesting points, and of course many pea-brained comments still parrot the "WAH WAH WAH PIRATES ARE SCUM THIS ARTICLE NO GOOD" trope. As stupid as those people sound, it leads me to believe a lot of game dev higher-ups probably have that exact same attitude (*coughtGuillemotcough*).

 

What say you?

[Enervation]

I like his "value v. worth" argument. Very interesting take on digital media.

[CorgiShinobi]

I'm really tired of the "Gaming is a luxury, not a right. If you can't pay it, don't play it." argument. I don't know, do developers (not publishers) really like to hear that 200 people bought their game more than a 1000 people enjoyed their game? Gaming is needlessly expensive as it is, I don't really think it should be reserved to some business elite or, well, anyone.

Usually joy is preceded by a sale; something you assume because it's common practice. It's a career, right? While everyone wishes their hugs and kisses could be proper tender for those responsible for their favorite games, sweat and tears are rewarded with cash.

 

It's a hobby/luxury. No one is forcing you to buy all the games that interest you; they're a want, not a need. Some odd time ago, on the Killzone 3 Beta, I heard the following conversation.

 

"Ah man, there's too many good games coming out. Like, Uncharted 3, Bulletstorm, Arkham City, [etc.] Like, c'mon, why can't they spread them out. I don't have that much money and, like, I need to finish AC: Brotherhood. Oh, and of course Killzone 3 when it's out."

 

We could complain, but at the same time we put ourselves in that position. As a kid, I was use to not getting every game that looked great. I mean, why couldn't father spend $150 more on a few good games? At least we have a standard price for standard games, unlike the 5th generation with fluxing prices. If you want a Collector's Edition, you're willingly spending more money on a few trinkets.

 

It's in your power, and really, no one owes you anything. Well, unless you open a game case and find there's no game disc.

 

EDIT: Terrible spelling error.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Atomsk88

[Cyber Rat]

My real problem with the argument I mentioned is that, assuming you don't have money for whatever reason (you're not well off, you have no job or a very crappy one, you're a college student) and you listen to the people who said that, then there is nothing coming out of it. It seems the main idea is "you buy a game to support the developer", not "you play the game to experience something great". I mean, seriously, if someone were to come to me and tell me they've never played Portal because they have no Internet connection to buy it over Steam and they can't afford it retail, I'd personally burn the game for them in a heartbeat and have them enjoy it. Because it's a great game and people should enjoy it. It already sold like... an ungodly amount and was even given away at one point.

 

Yes, the developers and their families have to eat, but we've already established that 1 pirated copy is not the same as one lost sale and that the highest selling games were the most pirated ones as well. It's like most gamers who are in a position to buy a lot of games or who live somewhere where it's actually humanly possible to save money for a month and buy a day 1 release think that because they pay for all their games, no one should enjoy them without doing the same. Why the fuck not? Is he destroying your joy by playing the game? Do we really want people to comment on games only if they can afford them? That's how shovelware is born.

 

Note, I am talking only about people who can't actually afford games, which I am very sure exist. Not everyone who says they can't afford them is telling the truth, but the Internet seems to assume they are always talking to Americans or Western Europe. If you can afford games, but still pirate everything just cause you can, then you are a cheap bastard.

 

(sorry for some ramblings, woke up recently)

[CorgiShinobi]

Well, if we're going to talk specifically about citizens of foreign countries, then I would agree with you.

 

It just seemed like a general topic, and yeah, I'm use to a lot of North American and European online folk giving a sob story on how they've already bought so many games and how they're the definition of "poor." I think it's like what James (the developer) from Extra Credits said: if there is no practical means of purchasing a game, as a developer, by all means pirate away.

 

Isn't it literally twice as much to afford video games (and other media) in Brazil? I remember over a year ago there was an article on Kotaku and one of the commenters was an actual citizen of Brazil. He gave a detailed step-by-step process of how difficult it is to be a gamer in Brazil, going so far as sometimes having to travel outside of the country if you were incline to legal purchase anything.

[TheMightyEthan]

That's actually a good point that I hadn't considered: when publishers/devs talk about how many people pirated their game, I doubt they're taking into account how many of those people are in territories where it's just not feasible to acquire it legally.

[Strangelove]

Gaming is one of the most expensive hobbies around, so why buy a game system but be so poor that you cant afford games for it?

It makes no sense. You really arent owed anything when it comes to videogames. Its not a necessity. At all.

 

a lot of us are denied from awesome shit because we lack money. Its how the world works. People work to buy shit they want but dont need. You earn it, youre not entitled to it.

 

The only thing everyone should get for free is air. Everything should be earned.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Strangelove

[TheMightyEthan]

But if you honestly can't afford it, and so you pirate it, how is that hurting anyone? The developer/publisher wouldn't have gotten your money anyway, because you can't afford it. What difference does it make?

[deanb]

Oh yeah meant to add to this a while back.

 

Note the dates. (also note that it's not a cracked version on PC, just the ISO)

 

Fuck you CliffyB and Epic Games

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Cliff-Bleszinski-Talks-About-Gears-of-War-2-And-Piracy-94464.shtml

 

Anywho to copy from my mini-twitter rant:

So Bulletstorm is out today. And so is the uncracked, unplayable PC version. Catching to to 360/PS3 from last week. I wish Devs/Pubs would decide what it is they hate. Do they hate piracy in general? Do they hate day-zero piracy? Or just PC development? Because I've seen devs/pubs hate piracy, I've seen em hate zero-day piracy. But it's always in the frame of PC gaming n why they use DRM. DRM stops the zero-day stuff, which is meant to be the worst. And it's doing a great job here. But nothing for console, despite being worse.

 

the console versions of games are consistently out on the pirate sites well before the PC version. And there's nothing done about it, none of the devs really seem to talk about it. Last year there was headlines on MS blocking off 1million piracy-enabled 360's from Live. And since I doubt not all the pirates connect to live that's not all. If it was just those guys it's 1/50 360 consoles pirate games. But since Live only accounts for half the consoles, that's closer to 1/25million, possibly even higher, 1/20?

But none of the dev's talk about how they'll pull out of console development, or how it's destroying360 gaming. I'd wager there's business stuff in there. you say stuff about how shit piracy is on PC you piss off only PC gamers (and to a degree the PCGA), you say piracy is bad on 360 or PS3 whatever then you piss off MS or Sony. You piss em off they stop your future games coming to their console (unless you're COD or whatever)

 

 

[Strangelove]

But if you honestly can't afford it, and so you pirate it, how is that hurting anyone? The developer/publisher wouldn't have gotten your money anyway, because you can't afford it. What difference does it make?

 

Maybe im old fashioned, but i save up money til i can afford something. Do people not do that anymore?

i didnt havve a job for a year and i didnt play anything new becuse i didnt have money. I wish i could play killzone 3, but i again have no money.

Ill just buy it later cus i really want to play it.

im not owed playing killzone 3 no matter how much i want to play it. I dont have money now, but someday i will, like everyone here.

 

Sorry to say, but some pirated copies are indeed sales.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yes, some pirated copies are lost sales, no one is arguing with that.

 

I was arguing with the assertion that every pirated copy is a lost sale (I know you didn't actually say that.

 

You keep getting back to the "I'm not owed anything" argument, and I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make. Of course you're not owed anything by a developer or publisher. So what? If you're not depriving them of a sale, what does that matter?

 

Also, you're assuming that when someone pirates a game they then never buy that game. That's a faulty assumption. I know plenty of people who pirate a game when it's new, either because they can't afford it or are unsure if it's going to be good enough for the asking price, and then later buy it once they can afford it, or after they learn that it is good.

[deanb]

Maybe im old fashioned, but i save up money til i can afford something. Do people not do that anymore?

 

Just to throw this out there but not everyone in this thread lives in the west. Which is where a lot of the stuff on the few pages is coming from, this concept that folks live in countries where the games are either not released, or cost a substantially larger part of a salary than it does in the US.

 

Also, you're assuming that when someone pirates a game they then never buy that game. That's a faulty assumption. I know plenty of people who pirate a game when it's new, either because they can't afford it or are unsure if it's going to be good enough for the asking price, and then later buy it once they can afford it, or after they learn that it is good.

 

Maybe it's just who I hang out with, but I'd say 99% of the folks I know who pirate will also buy the game if good. And I just can't help but feel there's a substantial amount of pirates are the same way. Whenever you mention that you buy the games that turn out good you're generally going to get a reply back saying "well you're just one person, not everyone does that" but when nearly everyone I know does do that, then I'm clearly not just one person, and I very much doubt it's a philosophy only people I know have.

[Cyber Rat]

Maybe im old fashioned, but i save up money til i can afford something. Do people not do that anymore?

 

In normal countries, yes, it's possible. Consider yourself lucky you live in one.

 

 

 

Sorry to say, but some pirated copies are indeed sales.

 

Just because some are doesn't mean every pirated copy is a lost sale. And as we have proven in this thread a few times, successful games will not be stopped from being successful because of piracy.

[Mal]

Building off what Dean said. What I pirate is also what I might buy. I'm not one of those high volume pirates that download a few games a day. If you log how many games I buy and pirate, it would be very close in number.

 

Believe me Strange, I would love to buy everything I play, heck, I am currently trying to go on a non-pirate streak.* However, sometimes... like a credit card to some young folks. Those pirated copies looks pretty tempting at times. Hell, they come with no credt card debt too.

 

On the issue of how some devs and publishers focusing on PC piracy and seemly ignoring console piracy. It was hell of a lot worst about ten years and before ago. Us console pirates had to shell out some money to some even bigger pirates*. That pretty much sealed the deal on if we were ever going to buy legit at all. Now, it is still very possible to pirate on consoles but its just most people can't be assed to go through the process just like some people can't be assed to build a proper gaming PC. () So as far as console piracy goes... it pretty much won in the devs and publishers eyes. Now its time to go after the easiest target...

 

*Look waaay back for my account of those times.

[R__]

My take on piracy:

 

If I'm unemployed it's a great option.

If I'm making a lot of money I don't mind paying for something.

If I want to try something out without blowing money, piracy is a great option.

If it's overpriced, piracy is a great option.

 

To eliminate piracy, you only need 2 things: A customer base that is employed, and a price point that makes sense.

[CorgiShinobi]

I wonder, has anyone tried Gamefly? Like, back in the day I would rent some games. Sometimes to demo the game, or to experience a game for a bit to know what my friends were talking about.

 

My understanding of the service is it's like Netflix. While it might cost money, it seems like a legal alternative to the "demoing" aspect of piracy. Also, I don't want to be a Negative Nacy, but I don't know about anecdotal evidence guys. Like, you may know a lot of people who purchase after playing a pirated copy, but are we sure that's true for the entirety? I only say this because I know more people who would keep a pirated copy than eventually purchase the game.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, and I hope you guys are right, just there's always some statistic out there that astounds. You know, kinda like eBay. I mean to say, you know how you can feel like you're the only one who's looking for a really obscure and old product? Yet, when you go to bid, there's always a few people in the nation who had the same idea, and at the same time!