Mass Effect

[jimmuhpage]

 

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Article reminds me of

Do people really believe that? Or is it just a simplification joke?

 

There's a difference between "kill you every 50k years" and "harvesting and preserving your species for eternity."

 

Really like the article though. Makes the argument for destroying them harder to support imo.

 

 

Also, I think WaS meant if they revealed the indoctrination theory to be true.

[Waldorf and Statler]

What Jimmuh said. That statement was made literally RIGHT after we were first discussing the Indoctrination theory.

 

Hypocrisy? Maybe, but let's be honest here Bioware has given us plenty of that already.

[Hot Heart]

Yeah, that meme image completely misses the point. Then again, maybe they didn't have the Javik DLC that makes things that much clearer.

[TheMightyEthan]

I dunno, I thought Catalyst kid explained it pretty clearly.

 

I've just been assuming that people are intentionally over-simplifying it to make it sound stupider, rather than believing that any large number of people could have misunderstood it that fundamentally.

[Hot Heart]

True, but it's hard to tell at this point because I've seen so many people latch onto the image and take it at face value.

[deanb]

One mans harvesting is another mans killing. And tbh if I'm the guy being harvested I'm not going to be calling it pretty words.

[Hot Heart]

That is missing the point.

 

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Sure, the whole concept is cold and impersonal; which is part of why the ending is so bad. The initial idea behind the Reapers was like "We harvest the most advanced races in order to solve some dark energy thing or whatever. Humans may be the key because of diversity or something" and now it is "We harvest only the most advanced races because at some point you will create a synthetic race that will wipe out every single organic being no matter how basic. Trust us. It hasn't happened yet but I can just tell..."

 

Pick which one makes the...most sense.

 

[deanb]

How is it missing the point?

 

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The Reapers wipe out all the advanced civilizations, turning them into reapers, husks, or slaves like the collectors. They're hardly leaving those species alive. They kill off that species. It's not a simplification to make it sound stupid. It is stupid, and that is how it's explained to you.

 

The additional idiocy is yes that the catalyst kill tells you something that's pretty much a lie/outright disproven in the whole "synthetics will wipe you out". Well yeah, if you hadn't built an army of super-powered synthetic space ships then synthetics wouldn't be wiping us out. It's like "stop hitting yourself" but on an intergalactic scale.

 

 

[Hot Heart]

  On 4/5/2012 at 8:27 PM, Deanb said:

How is it missing the point?

 

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The Reapers wipe out all the advanced civilizations, turning them into reapers, husks, or slaves like the collectors. They're hardly leaving those species alive. They kill off that species. It's not a simplification to make it sound stupid. It is stupid, and that is how it's explained to you.

 

The additional idiocy is yes that the catalyst kill tells you something that's pretty much a lie/outright disproven in the whole "synthetics will wipe you out". Well yeah, if you hadn't built an army of super-powered synthetic space ships then synthetics wouldn't be wiping us out. It's like "stop hitting yourself" but on an intergalactic scale.

 

 

 

 

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Because it's about how insignificant you are in the grand scheme. You're being wiped out to make way for the 'younger' races. The Reapers don't kill all organic life, just those capable of creating synthetics. The idea supposedly being that eventually there will be a synthetic race that kills every living thing. Sure, you're being killed but it's supposed to be 'for the greater good'. That's why it feels so impersonal.

 

I'm not disagreeing that the whole concept is incredibly stupid and is riddled with holes. Just that the meme image misses the point.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, the point is

 

 

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that if the Reapers didn't do this synthetic life would eventually completely destroy organic life. Forever. There would be no more. The Reapers are stopping that from happening. They're not saving your civilization, they're saving organic life as a whole.

 

[Hot Heart]

Frankly, I'd like to think if you're some advanced entity you could come up with some better solutions given how fucking long you've had...

 

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Maybe just 'relocate' the current organic life to somewhere 'behind' an inaccessible relay and let them carry on their own thing? No one was gonna disturb the Collectors until you got them meddling in things and left dead Reapers about.

 

Why don't you not connect all your mass relays so these races aren't aware of one another at all?

 

Why not just swoop in and wipe out synthetic life when it appears and issue a stern "No! Bad organics!" before disappearing again?

 

I guess that's the problem with altering your whole fucking mythos for the final part of your trilogy.

 

[deanb]

 

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It doesn't miss the point at all. The Catalyst created a race of synthetics to wipe out races to save them from being killed by synthetics. In doing so it created the synthetics that are killing all life.

The Synthetics that wiped out the Protheans? The Reapers

The synthetics that would have wiped out humans/quarians/asari/turian/etc? The Reapers

The synthetics that wiped out those that came before the protheans? The Reapers.

 

The only synthetics that have wiped our organic life are....The Reapers. Created by the very being trying to stop synthetics from wiping out life. Which makes his entire theory on "why to save the galaxy by wiping out advanced races" to be fucking self-fulfilling. It's also worth noting the only two synthetic beings ever created/mentioned are the Reapers, and the somewhat peaceful Geth(depends on choices). All this kid has ever known is that synthetics will wipe out life. And he only knows this as the eventuality because he created this eventuality. hence "stop hitting yourself".

 

All of this is further compounded by the fact this kid wipes them all out without much of a choice on if they agree with him, or giving them an option or the time to come up with a solution of their own (if a solution is at all needed). It's pretty "put up or shut up" kinda solution. If you think he's stupid? Well tough he's gonna turn you into mulch or similar anyway.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:05 PM, Deanb said:

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It doesn't miss the point at all. The Catalyst created a race of synthetics to wipe out races to save them from being killed by synthetics.

 

You miss the point in your first sentence.

 

 

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It's not wiping out all races to save them from being killed by synthetics, it's wiping out all advanced races to save organic life as a whole from being wiped out by synthetics.

 

 

Yes, it's a stupid solution, and it's a stupid explanation because it conflicts with lore in a lot of ways, but that meme is misrepresenting it to make it appear stupider than it really is (or at least stupid in a different way). As you say, it's already stupid enough without misrepresenting it, which makes the fact that the meme misrepresents it even MORE irritating.

[Hot Heart]

 

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Once again, I've already stated it's full of holes. I even put:

 

"We harvest only the most advanced races because at some point you will create a synthetic race that will wipe out every single organic being no matter how basic. Trust us. It hasn't happened yet but I can just tell..."

 

The Catalyst tells you that a synthetic race wiping out all organics is an eventuality. The game shows you absolutely different, but there's the idea that they know much more than you can comprehend. Perhaps they're referring to a technological singularity, I don't know.

 

You're welcome to disagree with the concept (I think it's totally awful), and you can even choose an ending to express this, but the image is incredulity at what the Catalyst says, and that is the point they are making.

 

 

Which reminds me of something relating to Mordin and Tuchanka...

 

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If you try to get Mordin to sabotage the Genophage cure, mentioning his views on Maelon's data, he says "I made a mistake! I made a mistake...focused on big picture. Big picture made of little pictures. Too many variables. Can't hide behind statistics. Can't ignore new data."

 

Figured that was an interesting perspective.

 

Edited April 5, 2012 by Hot Heart

[deanb]

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:12 PM, TheMightyEthan said:

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:05 PM, Deanb said:

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It doesn't miss the point at all. The Catalyst created a race of synthetics to wipe out races to save them from being killed by synthetics.

You miss the point in your first sentence.

 

 

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It's not wiping out all races to save them from being killed by synthetics, it's wiping out all advanced races to save organic life as a whole from being wiped out by synthetics.

 

Yes, it's a stupid solution, and it's a stupid explanation because it conflicts with lore in a lot of ways, but that meme is misrepresenting it to make it appear stupider than it really is (or at least stupid in a different way). As you say, it's already stupid enough without misrepresenting it, which makes the fact that the meme misrepresents it even MORE irritating.

 

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Except the Reapers(synthetic life) are wiping out organic life as a whole. They're just doing it over 920,000 simple payments every 50,000years*. The Reapers were made by the catalyst to do explicitly what the catalyst had wanted to stop in the first place. The only thing the reapers should be wiping out are the reapers.

 

 

* The rate which you are wiped out is based upon your galactic situation, the amount of organic life and may also depend on the repayment term. Eligibility criteria and conditions apply. You must be a Milky Way resident to apply. Total annihilation is subject to your circumstances at the time of applying. The rate offered may differ from the representative APR.

[TheMightyEthan]

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:38 PM, Deanb said:

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Except the Reapers(synthetic life) are wiping out organic life as a whole. They're just doing it over 920,000 simple payments every 50,000years*. The Reapers were made by the catalyst to do explicitly what the catalyst had wanted to stop in the first place. The only thing the reapers should be wiping out are the reapers.

 

 

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No they're not, because since they only wipe out advanced civilizations new organic life and new advanced civilizations will keep evolving until the end of the universe. They're saying that if they didn't do something organic life would cease. Full stop.

 

[Hot Heart]

I'm going to assume Dean understands by now and was just making a joke. AT LEAST I VERY MUCH HOPE SO.

[CorgiShinobi]

As was said before, this makes more sense if you have seen Javik speaking about Legion and the Geth.

 

 

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In the sense that history repeats itself, it seems that eventually that one of the more advanced races will attempt to create artificial life. In Javik's time there were the Zha'til.

 

 

 

[deanb]

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:44 PM, TheMightyEthan said:

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:38 PM, Deanb said:

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Except the Reapers(synthetic life) are wiping out organic life as a whole. They're just doing it over 920,000 simple payments every 50,000years*. The Reapers were made by the catalyst to do explicitly what the catalyst had wanted to stop in the first place. The only thing the reapers should be wiping out are the reapers.

 

 

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No they're not, because since they only wipe out advanced civilizations new organic life and new advanced civilizations will keep evolving until the end of the universe. They're saying that if they didn't do something organic life would cease. Full stop.

 

 

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No they won't keep evolving, because the Reapers will wipe them out once their 50K years is up. Full Stop. Given the rate at which they do this (50K years is a very very short time as far as life evolving n all that goes. Inbetween the extinction of the dinosaurs and the rise of man the Reapers will have culled 1,300 cycles of civilizations alone. 4 in the space of man rising to our current level), and that it's only the somewhat small area of the Milky Way, the Reapers would end up wiping out pretty much all life apart from alien equivalents of cows n such making the only sentient life around....The Reapers. All other life having being wiped out by the synthetic Reapers to save them from the synthetics.

 

 

edit: I'm not making a joke.

 

*watches video*

Oh hooray, storing important story information in paid for DLC....

 

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Doesn't seem quite like the Geth. Geth are full synthetics, theirs are a combination of the two (which is one of the options given to you by the Catalyst). Also on the topic of treachery...the krogan? Anyone remember those guys? Or the Salarians and how they went about resolving that problem?

 

[TheMightyEthan]

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:57 PM, Deanb said:

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No they won't keep evolving, because the Reapers will wipe them out once their 50K years is up. Full Stop. Given the rate at which they do this (50K years is a very very short time as far as life evolving n all that goes. Inbetween the extinction of the dinosaurs and the rise of man the Reapers will have culled 1,300 cycles of civilizations alone. 4 in the space of man rising to our current level), and that it's only the somewhat small area of the Milky Way, the Reapers would end up wiping out pretty much all life apart from alien equivalents of cows n such making the only sentient life around...The Reapers. All other life having being wiped out by the synthetic reapers to save them from the synthetics.

 

 

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No, because they only wipe out advanced civilizations. Starfaring civilizations. You don't have 50,000 years to evolve from the level of cows to the level of the asari, you have 50,000 years to evolve from a level as high as we are now, or even a little higher. If the Reapers were real and as they're explained in the game, and attacked the galaxy right now, they would leave our civilization alone.

 

Anyway, even if what you're saying is true, organic life still survives, which is all they're trying to ensure.

 

[deanb]

  On 4/5/2012 at 10:04 PM, TheMightyEthan said:

  On 4/5/2012 at 9:57 PM, Deanb said:

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No they won't keep evolving, because the Reapers will wipe them out once their 50K years is up. Full Stop. Given the rate at which they do this (50K years is a very very short time as far as life evolving n all that goes. Inbetween the extinction of the dinosaurs and the rise of man the Reapers will have culled 1,300 cycles of civilizations alone. 4 in the space of man rising to our current level), and that it's only the somewhat small area of the Milky Way, the Reapers would end up wiping out pretty much all life apart from alien equivalents of cows n such making the only sentient life around...The Reapers. All other life having being wiped out by the synthetic reapers to save them from the synthetics.

 

 

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No, because they only wipe out advanced civilizations. Starfaring civilizations. You don't have 50,000 years to evolve from the level of cows to the level of the asari, you have 50,000 years to evolve from a level as high as we are now, or even a little higher. If the Reapers were real and as they're explained in the game, and attacked the galaxy right now, they would leave our civilization alone.

 

Anyway, even if what you're saying is true, organic life still survives, which is all they're trying to ensure.

 

 

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No we wouldn't. If the Reapers arrived 200 years earlier than they do in ME, we'd be dead. They would maybe leave our cows alone, but given the level of culling they'd probably wipe out most of those on this planet too even if it's just collateral. Which pretty much stumps them for evolving into an advanced sentient species like ourselves, even if there was enough left around it'd still take several million years (many hundreds of cullings) to get to our stage all over again. Only to be wiped out by the Reapers again. If all they wanted to do was to ensure organic life was to survive, then why not just go on one long ass cull, kill everything, and leave some algae around then move on to the next galaxy. Or just leave organic life alone in it's entirety. Or just kill the synthetic life. In this case just means a quick stop to Rannoch, glass the planet then leave (what they actually did was go to Rannoch and upgrade the synthetic life they found there, going directly against the prime directive of the Reapers purpose.)

 

[Mister Jack]

 

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Either way, preserving organic life just for the sake of keeping it around is really anti-climactic. With all this buildup, they really should have come up with a grander purpose for organic life. Usually when you harvest something, it's because you intend to do something important with it.

That catalyst kid did a shit job of explaining his reasons.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

@Dean:

 

 

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Watson has nothing to do with it. They only wipe out spacefaring races.

 

And sure, it would take a few million years for life on earth to evolve technological civilization again (though assuming great apes survive it could be a relatively short period of one or two million years, and the reapers have been doing this for at least 37 million), but there are something like 300 billion stars in the galaxy, say 300 million planets capable of supporting life (1 per 1000 stars), 50k years between cycles, and 50 million years between advanced civilizations on each planet, you'd still have 3000 civilizations arising EVERY CYCLE. So no, they're not in danger of stopping the whole process.

 

 

@Jack:

 

Yeah, it's a shitty explanation, that throws canon out the window, I'm just arguing that that meme completely misunderstands it.

[deanb]

 

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Your maths is off by a long shot. First parts is on your extremely high life sustaining planet count, current estimates put it around 6million or so, and that's being generous. 0.005% of planets can support life, of the 40% of stars with planets. That's drastically lower than your 0.1% estimate. And that's just planets that support life, never mind life that develops, gains sentience and surpasses their nuclear age(which we still haven't).

 

Also where have they said space-faring civilizations only? Their aim is to wipe out AI(well their aim is to wipe out organic life that could/has created AI even), which we clearly have. And we have the means for that AI to launch itself upon the galaxy (not like they care for the time it would take). If you're something under the grand and hyper-intelligent Catalyst you're not going to be wizzing around and detect our planet and give us a miss until the next cycle in 50K years because we're a hundred years or so off FTL travel. We're a space capable race with nuclear and directed energy weapons as well as the basis for AI life. We're not a huge threat now, but give us 50K years (50K yrs ago we were banging two rocks together still) and we'd be an extreme threat. So I'd say we're in the "wipe them out" window of the selection process.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

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I wasn't trying to estimate for the real world, I was trying to estimate for the Mass Effect universe. You're right though, my math was off, it should have been 300,000 new civs per cycle, not the 3,000 I put. With my corrected math, even if I use your number of 6 million planets that's 6000 new civs every cycle. Divide it by 10 to account for stuff getting fucked up one way or another and it's still 600 new civs every single cycle.