Captain America

[CorgiShinobi]

Haters gonna hate.

 

The only thing "America, Fuck Yeah!" about Captain America is his name "Captain America." His own personal squad in the film is made up of every color and Allied Force. He doesn't go around yelling, "I gotta kill me some Nazis!" Instead, his reasoning is that he wants to fight bullies and it doesn't matter who or where they're from. In the film, he's not afraid to do what's right. Hell, he went on a solo stealth mission to free prisoners.

 

Ah hell, who am I kidding? I could go on, but I swear if there was even a shred of "America ain't bad" coming out of Captain America's lips, people would go fanatical about "OMG, AMERICA BIAS!" Seriously, watch the damn film sometime soon because the only thing "perfect" about Captain America is perhaps his white teeth.

 

I can think of a certain moment in the film right now involving a blonde slut and a desk where he totally drops the bomb.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Atomsk88

[Thursday Next]

Not to mention that no one blinks when he measures the rest of the world against his morality

 

Huh?

 

By no one, I mean "Not one of his fans." take the below quote:

 

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — 'No, you move.'"

 

Basically boils down to: "Captain America is always right. Everyone else can go to hell."

 

How about, if the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, you ought to reassess your situation rather than trying to blindly impose your beliefs on everyone else?

 

That statement from the Cap pretty much sums up the "world police" perception of America, it's not a good thing.

[CorgiShinobi]

Not to mention that no one blinks when he measures the rest of the world against his morality

 

Huh?

 

By no one, I mean "Not one of his fans." take the below quote:

 

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — 'No, you move.'"

 

Basically boils down to: "Captain America is always right. Everyone else can go to hell."

 

How about, if the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, you ought to reassess your situation rather than trying to blindly impose your beliefs on everyone else?

 

That statement from the Cap pretty much sums up the "world police" perception of America, it's not a good thing.

Where are you pulling this from?

 

How about it being a personal speech to the common man to uphold their personal beliefs even when under the pressure of the press, the politicians or the mob. That a country could be the one who is wrong, but do you fall under pressure from the vast majority? That the principle is to stand for your freedom, for your speech and for your life. No matter the odds or consequences.

[Mr W Phallus]

Dean, Dean, Dean. I just know you're the kind of guy who complains about the explosions in Star Wars.

 

The director's job is to be anal? About camera angles maybe, or the actor's performances, but as far as realism goes you might as well say an artist's job is to paint a picture as close to real life as possible. Someone has already posted a TVTropes link, although I'd say this one is even more appropriate. It's a farce, basically, and both the director and the (informed) audience know it, but we all play along. Why? Because it sounds better. How the hell else are we supposed to know a bullet hit the shield? It's audio-tactile feedback.

 

But most of all, you're taking the term 'vibration-proof' far too literally. Bullets can still go through a bullet-proof vest. Shatter-proof rulers still break into several pieces. Sound-proof headphones still let some sound in. Bomb-proof suits are still susceptible to bombs. The suffix -proof, in the word of the OED is 'Used as the second element in adjectival compounds, with the first element designating that against which resistance is offered, as bullet-proof, heat-proof, plot-proof, shatter-proof, shot-proof, sound-proof, thief-proof, etc.' RESISTANCE. Not absolute prevention. Resistance. I'm presuming the point of vibration proofing his shield is to stop high velocity impacts breaking all the bones in his arm? You don't need to completely eradicate all vibrations for that, you just need to reduce them significantly.

 

You so silly.

[Thursday Next]

Where are you pulling this from?

 

How about it being a personal speech to the common man to uphold their personal beliefs even when under the pressure of the press, the politicians or the mob. That a country could be the one who is wrong, but do you fall under pressure from the vast majority? That the principle is to stand for your freedom, for your speech and for your life. No matter the odds or consequences.

 

It's such an easily subverted principle. Suicide bombers are standing up for what they believe in. Dictators stand up for what they believe in. If everyone stands up for what they believe in with no possibility of being swayed, then the whole world will end in conflict.

 

How's about this for a belief, I believe that Captain America is the second crappest super hero ever. I believe that I would rather see a super hero film about the Green Cross Code Man than Captain America.

 

[CorgiShinobi]

Where are you pulling this from?

 

How about it being a personal speech to the common man to uphold their personal beliefs even when under the pressure of the press, the politicians or the mob. That a country could be the one who is wrong, but do you fall under pressure from the vast majority? That the principle is to stand for your freedom, for your speech and for your life. No matter the odds or consequences.

 

It's such an easily subverted principle. Suicide bombers are standing up for what they believe in. Dictators stand up for what they believe in. If everyone stands up for what they believe in with no possibility of being swayed, then the whole world will end in conflict.

 

How's about this for a belief, I believe that Captain America is the second crappest super hero ever. I believe that I would rather see a super hero film about the Green Cross Code Man than Captain America.

 

You can believe that, even if it is bullheaded. Of course, who said there wasn't an opportunity for reason and debate.

 

It's peer pressure if anything. For example, you're not giving up into believing the idea that you're the only one wrong while everyone else has a mild interest for the character. You're standing firm and trying to assert an opinion that bares more resemblance to extremism with how you derive nationalism and totalitarianism from a single quote.

 

Really, who would have guessed ideals like "freedom of speech" could be such double-edged swords, or should I say "easily subverted principles."

[Thursday Next]

Where are you pulling this from?

 

How about it being a personal speech to the common man to uphold their personal beliefs even when under the pressure of the press, the politicians or the mob. That a country could be the one who is wrong, but do you fall under pressure from the vast majority? That the principle is to stand for your freedom, for your speech and for your life. No matter the odds or consequences.

 

It's such an easily subverted principle. Suicide bombers are standing up for what they believe in. Dictators stand up for what they believe in. If everyone stands up for what they believe in with no possibility of being swayed, then the whole world will end in conflict.

 

How's about this for a belief, I believe that Captain America is the second crappest super hero ever. I believe that I would rather see a super hero film about the Green Cross Code Man than Captain America.

 

You can believe that, even if it is bullheaded. Of course, who said there wasn't an opportunity for reason and debate.

 

It's peer pressure if anything. For example, you're not giving up into believing the idea that you're the only one wrong while everyone else has a mild interest for the character. You're standing firm and trying to assert an opinion that bares more resemblance to extremism with how you derive nationalism and totalitarianism from a single quote.

 

Really, who would have guessed ideals like "freedom of speech" could be such double-edged swords, or should I say "easily subverted principles."

 

Freedom of speech is everyone's right to express themselves provided it does not infringe another's freedom to do so, one person expressing their views does not affect another person who may wish to do the same.

 

Telling the whole world "No-You move." is oppressive it seeks to limit the freedom of others in favour of what one person thinks is right. It is also combative in tone. Whatever happened to "I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will fight for your right to say it."?

 

With that. I'm going to play my "Agree to Disagree" card on this conversation. I can't stand Captain America. I hope he doesn't feature too heavily in the Avengers movie. I'm not telling anyone else to not like it, or not watch it.

[Mr W Phallus]

The point I assume Thursday Next is getting at, is that the principle of 'stand[ing] for your freedom, for your speech and for your life. No matter the odds or consequences.' is a very American ideal, based on the principles set down in the US constitution. It's pretty typical of Western society (not just America) to assume a universal subjectivity, that deep down everyone is the same and they all have Western ideals. You're assuming the moral you take from Captain America is one that speaks to any free-minded person, and yet it is intrinsically American in its attitude.

 

Personally I agree to some extent that just because the whole world disagrees with you, that does not necessarily mean you are wrong; at the same time there a very few minds that deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's a very dangerous message to spread, and one that, as I said, is typical of America's aggressive personal freedom stance.

 

Also not everyone apart from TN has a 'mild interest' in Captain America, so he's not really stubbornly opposing everyone else.

[CorgiShinobi]

True, I agree with your reasoning Phallus, but at the same time we've merely focused on a single quote. In context, it's not one aimed for a general audience, but by the words "this nation" is appears to target the American people. Again, it's one quote so no one should feel alienated. What you've said about Western ideals, perhaps that quote was there to remind the targeted audience of such ideals.

 

I personally I like it because while we do have freedoms, there is pressure from authority figures and media that exclaim, "No, how dare you think such nonsense!" Yes, there are frightening ideas and opinions in the world. Very much so do liberties also breed pain. Still, would we rather have no freedom out of fear of extremism? That would be the logic of a megalomaniac, one who's rein would create "peace" by forcible cooperation.

 

And much like my statement of "mild interest" (since I'm aware there are other opinions), it's a comic book quote riddled with hyperbole. Of course the entire world isn't going to be in conflict with you, but what will you do when a mass of opposition conflicts you? Sure you could ignore the press, even a politician and you've avoid the mob; a majority still exists and it exists through the people.