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Battlefield thread...


excaliburps
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35 members have voted

  1. 1. What System are you buying BF3 for?

    • PC
      18
    • PS3
      1
    • Xbox
      4
    • Unsure
      3
    • Not Buying
      9


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I probably won't have Steam running if I'm playing BF3 but if I'm not on Origin, just posting a status update here will probably be the surest way I'll see you're up for a game.

Just add each other's names in the Battlelog and you can connect directly to one another's games. That being said, my name will be Nezacant so please add me! My clan will have our own 40 person ranked server running conquest maps. I invite all of you to come join us on our server.

 

EDIT: For those that were concerned about the review embargo, I wouldn't be. BF is primarily a multiplayer game and logic would say that they would want reviewers to be able to experience multiplayer before passing judgement on the game. I would imagine they opened up some private servers for the review copies they gave out as has been done in the past. (And I don't think they wanted them to review it based on the beta either.) Tons of reviews are coming in now which shows they didn't intend on outright blocking reviews until after it's release. No offence to Mini Wheats, but comparing the release of Skyward Sword to the release of BF3, two completely different types of games with completely different technological challenges to be met and therefore would have to be reviewed differently, was silly.

Edited by Nezacant
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Game Informer threw up a review, gave it a 9.5/10.

 

Which is disappointing for me, really, considering it feels like another Bad Company game. I know others will love it, but I was heavily disappointed that it felt like another Bad Company game when they kept saying it was the "true" successor to BF2.

 

And it's still gonna sell millions based on name alone, which makes it even worse.

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I probably won't have Steam running if I'm playing BF3 but if I'm not on Origin, just posting a status update here will probably be the surest way I'll see you're up for a game.

 

The reviews are starting to roll in now. Seems generally favourable. I have to laugh at the people over on the official forums though. They're raging at IGN for giving it 9.0, calling them CoD fanboys when they gave Black Ops an 8.5. Metacritic

Recently forum dwellers have turned into comatose fucktards. They started pelting Sterling with hate for giving Arkham City an 8/10. God forbid someone not give only 10/10s to every single game ever released...

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I had an... erm... short conversation with MasterDex on the subject of this bottlefield thing. Spoilered for wall of text reasons.

 

 

 

16:31 - Johnny: So you're getting Battlefield 3?

16:31 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Yup

16:31 - Johnny: Have you played the beta?

16:32 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Yeah

16:32 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It had it's problems but many of them were easily fixed

16:32 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: At this stage, I know what to expect with a Battlefield game so I can overlook a lot.

16:33 - Johnny: I know what to expect so I know not to buy them xD

16:33 - Johnny: they frustrate me to death

16:33 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Why?

16:33 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: All the issues in general or is there a specific reason?

16:33 - Johnny: Many of them

16:34 - Johnny: for one, I hate it any time a game kills me without me being able to avoid it

16:34 - Johnny: if I died because I fucked up, then that's cool

16:34 - Johnny: if I died because some guy I couldn't see whot the wall I was taking cover behind with an RPG, I'm less happy

16:35 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I like that, it helps avoid corner campers

16:35 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: You know that if you're hiding in a house taking pot shots at passerbys that you're not safe

16:35 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: And need to be aware of your surroundings at all times

16:35 - Johnny: eugh

16:36 - Johnny: You know how Quake 3 avoids camping? Design a game that doesn't make camping insanely effective

16:36 - Johnny: >_>

16:36 - Johnny: honestly, in battlefield it's like

16:36 - Johnny: no matter what you do

16:36 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But Quake 3 is a VERY different type of game

16:37 - Johnny: there's more possible variables than you can keep track of and eventually something you couldn't have prevented will kill you

16:37 - Johnny: I hate it

16:37 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But that's the battlefield. Even if you're the leetest of the leet

16:37 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: You can still die

16:37 - Johnny: If you're using the realism argument

16:37 - Johnny: you can stop

16:37 - Johnny: :P

16:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: No, it's not the realism argument

16:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But the battlefield argument

16:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: You're not supposed to be the rambo character

16:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: If you work with a tightknit squad or team, you can avoid those "unavoidable" deaths

16:38 - Johnny: not all of them

16:38 - Johnny: you can't

16:39 - Johnny: a sniper will fuck you up

16:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Whereas if you rely on yourself too much then you're S.O.L

16:39 - Johnny: a tank will roll up at the precisely right timing

16:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: A sniper will fuck you up

16:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: If your own recons aren't doing their job

16:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: A tank will roll up

16:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But will only be a danger if your engineers aren't doing their jobs

16:39 - Johnny: well, then my problem is this

16:40 - Johnny: ... are you seriously asking me to trust and work together with 20 other random assholes on my team on a public server?

16:40 - Johnny: I despise the idea that a public game you play primarily with random people who usually won't communicate

16:40 - Johnny: is supposed to be about teamplay

16:41 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But it's only random if you allow it to be

16:41 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Sure, you're going to get some games where going lonewolf is THE only option

16:41 - Johnny: I have never

16:41 - Johnny: in BFBC2

16:42 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But then when you find the right server or community, you find guys that are thinking the same as you and work together as a team, even if they're random strangers

16:42 - Johnny: joined a server where my teammates have played in a teamplay friendly fashion

16:42 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: That's just bad luck. I can't say the same.

16:42 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But I will say that BC2 was generally worse in that regard

16:42 - Johnny: That's over 27 hours

16:43 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: And I blame Call of Duty for that

16:43 - Johnny: Seriously?

16:43 - Johnny: I blame bad game design.

16:43 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: 311 hours here

16:43 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: No, not bad game design at all

16:43 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Apart from perhaps the exclusion of the commo rose

16:44 - Johnny: The game is designed in a way where the easiest way you get a lot of kills is to pick recon and be an asshole

16:44 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It's just that after Call of Duty, the new generation learned only how to be rambo fuckers and they then got into battlefield and most never changed their style

16:45 - Johnny: mmhm

16:45 - Johnny: because this problem didn't exist in BF2

16:45 - Johnny: my most clear memory of BF2: I grab helicopter, get teamkilled

16:46 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: You're gonna get your assholes in every game

16:46 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But the proliferance has raised significantly since MW

16:46 - Johnny: If you're not taking the asshole-factor of other players into account when designing the game

16:46 - Johnny: you're being a bad designer

16:47 - Johnny: I'm going to use Brink as an example here

16:47 - Johnny: Brink did two things well

16:47 - Johnny: one was the movement system

16:47 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I don't think so. At least where PC and dedicated servers are concerned

16:47 - Johnny: the other was how it encouraged people to not be assholes and actually play as a team

16:48 - Johnny: It didn't give you a detailed scoreboard of kills deaths whatever

16:48 - Johnny: this might sound like a bad idea

16:48 - Johnny: but it gave you a single score

16:48 - Johnny: and that score

16:48 - Johnny: was increased by everything good you did for the team

16:48 - Johnny: from completing objectives to DAMAGING enemies to killing enemies to buffing allies

16:48 - Johnny: and you got far more by teamplaying and sticking together and whatnot, than you did by playing lone wolf asshole sniper

16:49 - Johnny: and it worked

16:49 - Johnny: it fucking worked

16:49 - Johnny: every player I encountered in Brink tried to teamplay

16:49 - Johnny: a lot of them weren't good at it

16:49 - Johnny: but they tried

16:49 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: The same is true of Battlefield but K/D is still crucial to how the game is designed. -as far as the combined score goes

16:59 - Johnny: The same is not true of battlefield. I get far more points playing asshole than trying to push objectives and play teamplay

17:01 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I've always gotten far more points using teamplay so I can't agree with that. I've often died more than anyone else on the team and still come out on top

17:01 - Johnny: Even if some people have more success with teamplay

17:01 - Johnny: just that it's possible for that not to be true is a problem

17:03 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But that possibility exists from a lack of teamplay

17:04 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: If the person with the best k/d is the one on top of the table and their score is made up of purely kill related points

17:04 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Then the rest of the team is the one at fault

17:04 - Johnny: That possibility is there because quite frankly

17:04 - Johnny: DICE hasn't evolved the fundamental gameplay design of Battlefield since BF2

17:05 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I don't think they needed to.

17:05 - Johnny: I think

17:05 - Johnny: if I were to buy a "realistic" shooter

17:05 - Johnny: that felt like a chaotic battle

17:05 - Johnny: I'd buy Red Orchestra 2

17:06 - Johnny: because what little I've played of it was both more fair and more realistic

17:06 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: That's the misconception about BF though

17:06 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It was never about realism

17:06 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But rather the dynamic of team battles with a full range of equipment

17:07 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: DICE have always said as much themselves

17:07 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It fills its own niche

17:07 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: And I have yet to see a game fill that niche better

17:07 - Johnny: only because pretty much nobody else has really tried

17:08 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But a few have. Frontlines for example was probably the most blatent attempt

17:08 - Johnny: No studio with a proper budget and experience have tried, then

17:11 - Johnny: I think DICE are being cowardly with their gameplay design. They are being allowed to be cowardly because no other studio is putting up a fight about it.

17:15 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Maybe, I just think they're of the same opinion as me "if it's not broke, don't fix it". You'll disagree that it's not broke, I know, but I hate to pull this card here but my longer experience with the game, I believe, gives me a greater insight. Certainly, there are aspects that could and should be improved but on a fundamental level, I think the game is fine.

17:16 - Johnny: I think that's bullshit

17:16 - Johnny: I think the vast amount of asshole recon players show that there's a problem

17:17 - Johnny: I think that a problem is still there even if it's only affecting players who haven't put in 200+ hours

17:18 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: The vast amount of recon players is under control now on any server worth their salt sicne they can limit the amount of them on a team. And that was only with BC2 and it was a class balancing failure rather than a failure on the most fundamental level

17:19 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: They've also improved in that regard too with the sniper glint in BF3

17:19 - Johnny: I can't speak for BF3 because I've only touched the beta briefly on a friend's machine

17:20 - Johnny: but I can list a LONG list of problems in BC2

17:20 - Johnny: some of them engine related

17:20 - Johnny: some of them progression system related

17:20 - Johnny: some of them fundamentally stupid

17:21 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I could do the same. I'm certainly not saying it's perfect but I don't think as a whole, it's as bad as you seem to be making it out to be

17:22 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Oh! And the scope sway is greater in BF3 as well making it harder to quickscope

17:23 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Which means recons have to stay exposed for longer before making shots

17:23 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: All in all, I thin the major problems as far as teamplay and the asshole factor are concerned can be dealt with sufficiently with good servers and admins

17:23 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Rare enough in this day and age, I know, but not extinct

17:24 - Johnny: I think if you leave a problem to be dealt with by server admins, and there's any way at all you could have helped

17:24 - Johnny: you're doing it wrong

17:25 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I think they're helping somewhat, I mean they really can't do a whole lot without taking freedoms away that would hurt good players as much as assholes.

17:26 - Johnny: Oh by the way

17:26 - Johnny: did they readd BF2 style commanders to BF3?

17:26 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: For isntance, there's now the ability to spawn into the Jets which means the instances of team deaths or people queing up for Jets instead of fighting should decrease somewhat

17:26 - Johnny: or is that still missing?

17:26 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: No, still missing.

17:26 - Johnny: >_>

17:26 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I can see it added in if there's a BF4

17:26 - Johnny: Personally

17:26 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But I think they're struggling to figure out how to implement it in a better way

17:27 - Johnny: tying the motion detector - a highly useful offensive tool - to the guy with the sniper

17:27 - Johnny: is a terrible terrible idea

17:27 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Agreed

17:27 - Johnny: I think the class system is fundamentally broken

17:27 - Johnny: and I hate to argue that CoD is doing something better

17:27 - Johnny: but CoD is doing that better :P

17:28 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: With total customisation?

17:28 - Johnny: It's much better than the mess they've got now imo

17:28 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I don't think so

17:28 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I don't think the classes are perfect but I wouldn't say they're fundamentally broken

17:28 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: At least in BF3

17:29 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Assault and Support make sense again

17:29 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: And the Engineer was always pretty solid

17:29 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: The only class I think that's left being broken is the Recon clas

17:29 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: They tried too hard to give him a "thing"

17:29 - Johnny: Everyone I know who played the beta says that Assault is pretty much OP now

17:30 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: No, it's perfect now.

17:31 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It's pretty much back to how it used to be

17:31 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I think the Assault in BC2 with infinite ammo is more OP'd than the current setup

17:32 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But yeah, I think the recons "things" should be given to the Squad Leader exclusively

17:32 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: It's the leader that should have the deployment becons and by in front throwing out motion sensors

17:33 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Rather than the guy hanging back away from everyone

17:33 - Johnny: Deployment beacons -.-''

17:33 - Johnny: that's another thing I haaate about Battlefield

17:33 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Why?

17:33 - Johnny: Because people do not teleport in next to their teammates

17:33 - Johnny: that is not how reinforcements work

17:34 - Johnny: it is fundamentally retarded

17:34 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But that's going with the realism argument

17:34 - Johnny: How about a gameplay argument?

17:34 - Johnny: A few days ago I was playing BC2 and killed some guy at the same time as his teammate spawned and instantly killed me with a shotgun

17:35 - Johnny: and my immediate reaction was "what the fuck this is retarded, I did nothing wrong to die there" and quit the game

17:35 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: In that regard, you have a very strong point

17:35 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But I think that's something that can be fixed

17:36 - Johnny: "what the fuck this is retarded, I did nothing wrong to die there" sums up 75% of my frustratrions with battlefield

17:36 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: You should play with me sometime, we'll see if we can knock that number down somewhat. :D

17:37 - Johnny: I'd rather install CoD4 and play promod. And no, that's not a no-teamplay brainless game; that's just how it's played by idiots on public vanilla CoD4 :P

17:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: Hey, I never said it was! I still love me some CoD4

17:38 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: But Battlefield will always scratch an itch nothing else can (or rather has)

17:38 - Johnny: I'll play Battlefield if I feel like I have a need for more headaches and rage

17:39 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I've gotta go now.

17:45 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: I'll talk to ya later

17:45 - Johnny: ttyl

17:45 - =IBF2=MasterDex[PXOD]: THIS ISN'T OVER! :D

 

 

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Rambo fuckers started in Counter Strike. Not CoD. :P

 

The lack of commander doesn't bother me much. I loved playing as commander, but the problem was that if you had one team with a commander and if no one took the roll on the other team, then the game became very unbalanced. So rather than use a commander, give squads the ability to call for artillery, fly UAVs, etc. I do wish they would find a good way to implement it again though.

 

As for squad beacons, this isn't the first time they've done this in a BF game. 2142 had them too. The problem with BF3's version of it is that it's completely stealthy. in 2142, when you spawned on the beacon, you would drop from the sky in a loud ass rocket pod that would give away the beacon's position. You knew right away when there was a beacon in the area. In BF3 you just pop in, and the beacon just lets out a faint beep for you to identify it with. I found in beta that good players will notice that people were getting to a base very quickly. As a squad (I play with clan mates and use Ventrilo) we'd split up and listen for a beacon. So this just may be something players will adapt to as they always do when things change.

 

I feel as if Johnny's feeling toward the game is because he hasn't had the time to put into it as others have and also hasn't played it with a good group of people. The people you play with, if you work together as a team, really changes it's dynamic.

Edited by Nezacant
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I think 2142 had the beacons right. Like you said, you had the drop pods visible for a few seconds s you could prepare for conflict - or to get smushed beneath the pod (I loved that!). Hopefully DICE will adjust it so that every spawn beacon spawns you in the air with your parachute out and if I'm not remembering a simple suggestion, I think hardcore may have the option to keep squad spawning to the squad leader, which I thought also worked well, not only in reducing the amount of instances where squadmates spawned in as you finished off some guy but also encourage squads to stay close together and protect each other.

 

As far as Commander goes, the squad leaders will have the ability to call in artillery but UAVs will be accessible by anyone with engineers also getting a UAV and mortor unlock but this was all missing from the beta. The commander role was great but it was often misused and abused which lead to much frustration, especially when you know you could do a better job but you can't get the mutiny going.

 

I don't think CS totally ruined the teamplay aspect as it was still important in any decent match but in CoD, teamwork really meant jack shit. A good team would win but a good player could win the round just as easily, if not easier. Maybe it's just me but it wasn't until BC2 that I noticed a serious degradation in teamplay and I don't think you can blame the game for that, at least not entirely, as I've had some fantastic matches with good teams and have found that more often than not, it's the better team that wins.

 

Battlefield is a series that has always had its quirks and problems. I'm pretty sure the sentry-gun/shield/Titan Container exploit is STILL in 2142 and that's been there from Day 1. RDX spamming was also a major problem in that game with the lack of friendly explosive damage, many also found placing the beacons in such a way that you could control the pod and get to an otherwise unreachable point to be broken too (personally, I found it fine since it was only a select few locations where it could be done and they were all well known, it also added a greater need for vertical awareness too). The jets in BF2 could dominate far too much and the random deviation could be a real bitch, not to mention that the need for lag compensation in BF games has always caused it's fair share of problems.

 

Yet I still can't get enough of the games. As I said in the chat, there's no other game that scratches that particular itch for me. My love for the series, coupled with my faith in DICE to put a decent effort into listening to their community means I forgive the series for many of its flaws but I can certainly see why others might not.

 

edit: I just remembered that DICE improved the situation where new squadmates would spawn in and kill you as you finished off your buddy a bit, they did this by removing the spawn protection the newly spawned player has the moment they take any sort of action. It's not a fix but it's an improvement over the initial timed protection they had.

 

Ultimately, I think the balance issues that BF games have always had is a problem with the type of game they have. It's an extremely delicate balance with all the options available to the player. I don't think, even after all the time I've spent with the series, that I could do much better of a job in that regard.

Edited by MasterDex
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@Dex: Teamplay is important in actual matches in CoD. It's not everything about the game, but a team that plays together will trump a team that just rushes in blindly.

 

@Nezacant: I have played Battlefield since the first title, so it's not a lack of time spent with the franchise. I feel the problems have just gotten worse for every installment past BF2.

 

also, "rambo fuckers" started in the old id games before your semi-realistic shooters even existed. =)

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@Dex: Teamplay is important in actual matches in CoD. It's not everything about the game, but a team that plays together will trump a team that just rushes in blindly.

I have to disagree. I've often carried a godawful team to victory on my own merit, even when facing a superior team. Teamplay certainly helps but I don't think it's important, at least not in the same way it is in Battlefield.

 

@Nezacant: I have played Battlefield since the first title, so it's not a lack of time spent with the franchise. I feel the problems have just gotten worse for every installment past BF2.

I personally think 2142 is the crowning achievement for the BF series thus far. It was just a much more focused and balanced affair I feel, despite having its own share of problems.

 

also, "rambo fuckers" started in the old id games before your semi-realistic shooters even existed. =)

Yeah but where teamwork was needed, it was generally there and most could enter Rambo mode but still contribute to the team effort whereas in recent years I find more people too stubborn to change their ways. But it could just be me.

Edited by MasterDex
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Well, I agree with both Johhny and Dex on a lot of their points, but I think at the same time I'm more than a little biased because I've sunk more time into the Battlefield games than any other FPS, and maybe any other game series.

 

I only have a couple points here because most of my opinions on all of this are pretty boring.

First, in regards to the Recon class being broken, I wholeheartedly disagree. To me, the Recon class is the most versatile class in the BF games (or at least BC2, the only time I've played the recon class for an extended period of time), and that's why so many people have a problem with it. Because you can play it sitting 3 bases behind and sniping, people do, and because you can run around quick-scoping and one shotting people do. The problem isn't wholly with the class, it's with how people play the class, and unfortunately, the class lends itself to the extreme agressive playstyle or the passive, irritating sit back 3 bases behind and snipe playstyle. The problem with these 2 styles is that one breeds hackusations and the other makes teammates rage at you when they have to respawn and run up to the next base. You can't do those types of things with any of the other classes in Battlefield, and that's why I enjoy playing recon so much in BC2. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at it, so I don't do it very much. Eventually my luck runs out with quickscoping, though, so I kinda rage and go assault or something.

 

Secondly, I don't really think that BF needs to or has good balance or good teamplay or good anything. I've had some of the worst multiplayer experiences in BF, and some of the best. The reason I keep coming back to the Battlefield games isn't the immersion, it isn't the guns or the gameplay, it's that I've spent so much more time in the BF games than any other series I can kinda pick up where I left off. I keep playing the games because the learning curve is practically nil with the exception of the new maps now. I keep playing the games because they're fun, not because they're better than COD or have great weapon balance or teamplay, because, well, that's in the eye of the beholder. They're not really well balanced games a lot of the time, and the engine is a little broken with hitreg on high and low pings, but the Battlefield series is by far my favorite MP series out there.

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I don't mean to disregard the rest of your post, spork, but there's one thing in particular I wanted to comment on.

 

The problem isn't wholly with the class, it's with how people play the class

 

I see this kind of thinking a lot when people are discussing modern shooters and it just blows my mind.

If the designers want you to play Recon one way, they need to design it so it punishes the other ways of playing. It's not the players' fault that the game rewards them personally for not contributing to the team.

 

It's the same thing with the "god-damned campers" in counter-strike and CoD. If camping is too prevalent (which I don't think it is in the PC versions of either game, but that's irrelevant) that's a problem for the game designers to fix.

 

This is sort of aimed at MasterDex as well: it's not Call of Duty or any other game's fault that players are playing it wrong in BFBC2. The game isn't sufficiently teaching/encouraging them how to play right.

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I do agree with Johnny that a game should coach you into the right way of playing. You learn to move around in Quake to avoid dying. You learn to time your blocks in fighting games to avoid losing (I used to suck at blocking and grabbing, but then learned it due to necessity). That doesn't mean everyone will succeed at their attempts, but there's an obvious difference between trying to do something right and failing, and doing something you're obviously not supposed to do (7 Recons on a hilltop).

 

Obviously, my examples were games where death means failure, but if Battlefield isn't giving me a sense of personal failure by playing it wrong and having the whole team lose, then it needs to think of some better way of telling me I suck.

Edited by Cyber Rat
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Yay the game is released! If any of you are looking for a server to play on, you would be doing me a favor by connecting to mine. The server name is Mount the Frak Up! Conquest 24/7 RevolutionFinale.com.

 

At the moment we cannot change the number of players required to start a match, so it's stuck at 8. The more I have connecting the easier it will be to get games started. See you in game!

Edited by Nezacant
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I don't mean to disregard the rest of your post, spork, but there's one thing in particular I wanted to comment on.

 

The problem isn't wholly with the class, it's with how people play the class

 

I see this kind of thinking a lot when people are discussing modern shooters and it just blows my mind.

If the designers want you to play Recon one way, they need to design it so it punishes the other ways of playing. It's not the players' fault that the game rewards them personally for not contributing to the team.

The way I see it, the Recon has two roles to fill - The sniper role and the recon role. Neither role should be punished as they're both valuable roles to the team. The wookie horde problem in BC2 spawned from the ease at which snipers could get good K/Ds. This was due to the lack of sway, the accuracy over range and the lack of proper defensive measures of the teams when most of their members were selfish snipers. This was expounded by DICE's insistence on not allowing class limits on ranked servers for a long time with the threat of server closure. Thankfully over time, they changed their tune and most decent servers now have a limit on the amount of snipers that can be deployed on any one team. The >XG< server, for example, has a 3 sniper limit per team. While this creates the potential for those 3 roles to be filled with selfish snipers, I feel that as a moderation decision, it's better to instigate it than allow too many snipers to spoil the game on others. I don't feel the game really rewards selfish snipers truly but that the player mentality of "K/D ratio is everything" means they don't care that they get more points helping out their team. Certainly, DICE should have done a better job of balancing the recon class and having the sniper role require such a low skill level to do well with. They have made it more difficult for snipers to do well in BF3 however so at least they listened to the community in the end.

 

It's the same thing with the "god-damned campers" in counter-strike and CoD. If camping is too prevalent (which I don't think it is in the PC versions of either game, but that's irrelevant) that's a problem for the game designers to fix.

 

This is sort of aimed at MasterDex as well: it's not Call of Duty or any other game's fault that players are playing it wrong in BFBC2. The game isn't sufficiently teaching/encouraging them how to play right.

I'm not really saying it's Call of Duty's fault for promoting the Rambo playstyle but simply that I noticed more people using that playstyle after the release of Modern Warfare and I noticed it in more than just BC2. There may be no correlation however, it may simply be that the younger generation of gamer is more inclined towards the Rambo playstyle than the older generation of gamers but it is something I noticed around that time.

 

I agree wholeheartedly however about the game not teaching/encouraging players to play right and the same is true of many games. The problem is greater in Battlefield where there's more to learn than something like Call of Duty but even Call of Duty has its problems in that regard. I feel that a game like Battlefield would benefit greatly from a GT-style license system where a series of tests and tutorials would grant you some sort of skill ranking. If there were multiple rankings, say from Level D to Level A+, that server administrators could set as the minimum skill ranking, I feel the general quality of players and teamwork would improve. You're always going to have selfish players but I think you'd have less if they saw how better teamwork or gameplay can improve their play.

 

Yay the game is released! If any of you are looking for a server to play on, you would be doing me a favor by connecting to mine. The server name is A Mount the Frak Up! Conquest 24/7 RevolutionFinale.com.

 

At the moment we cannot change the number of players required to start a match, so it's stuck at 8. The more I have connecting the easier it will be to get games started. See you in game!

 

The player limit is being discussed over on the EAUK forums so with any luck, DICE will spot the thread and change it.

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I feel that a game like Battlefield would benefit greatly from a GT-style license system where a series of tests and tutorials would grant you some sort of skill ranking. If there were multiple rankings, say from Level D to Level A+, that server administrators could set as the minimum skill ranking, I feel the general quality of players and teamwork would improve. You're always going to have selfish players but I think you'd have less if they saw how better teamwork or gameplay can improve their play.

 

I don't know anything about Battlefield and whether it would work, but I think this is an interesting concept you should write about.

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It's an interesting concept but I don't feel as if it would work. At least not in an FPS. I think most would skip over it. I do remember server admins in BF 2 would use client tools that would prevent someone of a certain rank to play on their server. If they only wanted experienced players, they would lock out the lower ranks. If it was a noob friendly server they would lock out higher ranks.

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Locking out people of certain rank levels doesn't really work. It may with BF3 with its, if I remember correctly, one profile per account but before that, on say COD4. A total crap player can eventually rank up enough to play on higher ranked servers. It also works the other way with say me starting a new profile and I wipe the floor with the other team with just the basic gear.

 

I honestly want to see that concept realized. It already in one form in MW2 Spec Ops. Very basic in the sense of MasterDex's concept but it can be fleshed out more.

 

Also, on a different note... folks I know on campus are getting BF3 and its making me slip... I must hold on. Its way too soon to get this game even when I'm somewhat okay with the Origin crap.

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Also, on a different note... folks I know on campus are getting BF3 and its making me slip... I must hold on. Its way too soon to get this game even when I'm somewhat okay with the Origin crap.

 

You are a better man than I, Malicious.

 

But anyway, my copy came today via Amazon. I really want to install it and play it tonight, but alas, bio midterm tomorrow. Probably not the best idea.

 

Amazon has a really odd way of doing release day shipping, though. Rather than ship it 2 day or very far in advance, they shipped it last night at 7:00 and it showed up today at 12. Not that I'm complaining, but it seems like it'd make more sense (and save them money) to ship it 2 day or sometime in advance.

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