GeoHot asks for donations to fight Sony’s PS3 hacking lawsuit

[peteer01]

RockyRan, think about what you're saying. You're saying, "It doesn't matter what his intent is, this can be used in some way to make piracy easier," and implying that that alone condemns his work.

 

Yes, it does. Look, in criminal law (not that I'm saying he's a criminal, but bear with me), you still get punished for certain offenses even if you "didn't intend" for anything to happen.

He's not causing people to pirate games. Following your example, wouldn't a gun manufacturer (or someone who shared the information on how to make gunpowder) be punished for gun related deaths?

 

And just for the record, if tinkering with one's property involves reverse engineering and publishing exploits of security systems, you're not legally allowed to do it. The law probably could stand to be a little less draconian, but that's how it is at this point.

Actually, the court will determine if what GeoHot did is legally allowed or not...and as you said, the law could stand to be less draconian. That's exactly why supporting GeoHot's legal battle, even if you don't care for the guy, is a good thing for consumers rights.

 

The fact of the matter is, the availability was there, and just like hackers hack because they like getting into closed systems, homebrewers write homebrew because they like dealing with hardware restrictions. After all, if they didn't want to go through dealing with "gimped systems", homebrew writers would just write regular apps on a PC.

I very much disagree. Wouldn't it be great to have a Sega CD, Saturn, 3DO and/or Dreamcast emulator on your PS3? A homebrew program that allowed you to stick your existing discs into your PS3 and play them on the PS3 using an emulator? Maybe even a PS2 emulator could have been cobbled together by the homebrew community.

 

I game in a projector room, and the only PCs that are ever in there are a laptop or iMac mini that simply isn't as powerful as I'd like. I use TVersity on my 360, and I love that functionality...homebrew, whether it's emulators, allowing your console to connect to a NAS filled with your media collection, programming your own games or playing other peoples games (XNA and Indie games cover this on the 360)...there are lot of reasons to want to write or use programs on a PS3 instead of a PC. I'm not going to put a PC in my projector/gaming room. I'd love more functionality out of any consoles that are in there.

 

OtherOS wasn't unsupported by homebrewers because people didn't like it's restrictions, it was unsupported because people just didn't give a shit.

I disagree. If people had real access to the PS3, you'd see PS3s being used as HD media extenders, MAME boxes, and multiple other uses. This additional functionality would be provided by the homebrew community if Sony's hypervisor limitations weren't in place.

 

 

Comments like this piss me off. I'm an American living in Japan and I'm used to being part of the tiny, tiny fraction of people that put up with BS because I'm in that tiny, tiny fraction. US immigration wants to interrogate my family because we're married but my Japanese wife isn't a US citizen and doesn't have a green card? Don't worry, I'm only a tiny, tiny fraction of the people. Microsoft and Sony are geofencing potentially objectionably content? Don't worry, me and the other people affected are only a tiny, tiny fraction of the people.

 

If you want to talk about the relevancy of the removal of Other OS, whether or not a large or small group was affected isn't the point. The point is that people did buy a PS3 because of Other OS, and that functionality was taken away.

 

Funny how you ignored that next sentence of mine. I said, if you actually used it it's your right to bitch, but everyone else can fuck off.

You missed my point. My point is that because I'm often in that "tiny, tiny fraction" of people who are affected, I wish more people would realize my plights and help rectify them. If more people actually cared and complained when I'm treated unfairly, I wouldn't find myself dealing with nearly as many issues. That's why I commiserate with the people who miss the functionality.

 

I deal with a bunch of legal and logistical hoops from both governments (Japan and America), would you say that I need to stop being a vocal minority when I speak out about that? Would you say that people who haven't been in my situation first hand should "fuck off if it doesn't affect you" when they try to help me improve the system?

 

"fuck off if it doesn't affect you"....people blowing the situation out of proportion (and they ARE blowing it out of proportion. It's called "vocal minority"), that's the stance that I'm taking.

As I said above, the situation, as it stands now, is that Sony's legal action will set legal precedence regardless of the verdict, if the trial goes to a verdict. I don't think it's possible to blow that aspect of the situation out of proportion.

 

If you haven't already seen the Extra Credit's video on Piracy, I recommend that. I like what they have to say about the PS3 from the 2:15 mark.

 

I have, and I don't agree with a lot of the points they make. Not because I disagree with their content, but because I disagree that they make several points that are highly subjective and passing them off as if they were objective. Such as their "justification for piracy" bit, in which they don a gavel and begin to proclaim when it's right to pirate. I'm sorry, but who are they again to make these proclamations? They're obviously allowed to have an opinion, but I don't appreciate it when people pass it off as fact.

 

The bit with the PS3 homebrew was just pandering to their audience. Their "Don't mess with the Linux users, they're badass mothafuckas!!!" was pretty transparent.

I agree with their opinion that if there's a "tiny, tiny fraction" of PS3 owners that you don't want to galvanize into regaining lost functionality, it's people who are installing Linux onto their console. I thought they made this point quickly and humorously. Considering their time constraints, how would you have gotten across the message? Edited February 24, 2011 by peteer01

[Mercurial]

You guys realize this is a civil suit and has pretty much nothing to do with legality right? Just sayin.

Not saying that he didn't do anything illegal.

Also peteer you realize it's illegal to modify your gun right?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Hakidia

[TheMightyEthan]

Civil suits have everything to do with legality. "Illegal" doesn't just mean "criminal."

[excel_excel]

So what about the guys who did PSP homebrew, DS homebrew, and Wii homebrew? Should they be punished as well?

[CorgiShinobi]

So what about the guys who did PSP homebrew, DS homebrew, and Wii homebrew? Should they be punished as well?

I don't want to sound totalitarian here, but it's possible. After all, the external hard drive homebrew for Wii did open a large window for piracy on the Wii. My best friend went that route and loaded his external hard drive with a megaton of Wii titles.

 

I didn't care, nor do I still care about his actions. Most of the titles were games he was never going to purchase, and most he had rented and ripped via homebrew. Still, it bothers me that the few great Wii titles he then possessed were by questionable methods.

[excel_excel]

So what about the guys who did PSP homebrew, DS homebrew, and Wii homebrew? Should they be punished as well?

I don't want to sound totalitarian here, but it's possible. After all, the external hard drive homebrew for Wii did open a large window for piracy on the Wii. My best friend went that route and loaded his external hard drive with a megaton of Wii titles.

 

I didn't care, nor do I still care about his actions. Most of the titles were games he was never going to purchase, and most he had rented and ripped via homebrew. Still, it bothers me that the few great Wii titles he then possessed were by questionable methods.

 

Ah that's interesting. My thing is when it comes to all these people hoping for Geohot to go to jail, how come they weren't upset about the Wii, PSP and DS being opened up for homebrew? but when it comes to PS3 its not ok?

[CorgiShinobi]

So what about the guys who did PSP homebrew, DS homebrew, and Wii homebrew? Should they be punished as well?

I don't want to sound totalitarian here, but it's possible. After all, the external hard drive homebrew for Wii did open a large window for piracy on the Wii. My best friend went that route and loaded his external hard drive with a megaton of Wii titles.

 

I didn't care, nor do I still care about his actions. Most of the titles were games he was never going to purchase, and most he had rented and ripped via homebrew. Still, it bothers me that the few great Wii titles he then possessed were by questionable methods.

 

Ah that's interesting. My thing is when it comes to all these people hoping for Geohot to go to jail, how come they weren't upset about the Wii, PSP and DS being opened up for homebrew? but when it comes to PS3 its not ok?

Probably because we have a single individual this time around. As I remember, the previous homebrew work for other platforms was a community effort. That, and people who want him to go to jail probably just think he's a dick. You know how easy it is to overreact on the Internet.

[Cyber Rat]

Also peteer you realize it's illegal to modify your gun right?

 

It is also illegal to have sex with a giraffe. I don't see what gun modification has to do with console modification. Oh, wait! I know this one... You own both... and you paid for both... and both are your PROPERTY! Yep, I guess we can apply the gun modification rule to consoles.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I hope this isn't a stupid question - if he hacked the system himself and used it for his own entirely legal reasons then that wouldn't be a problem (I believe the mobile phone jailbreaking rulings say this is OK). it's the fact that he released to it to the wider world knowing it would lead to circumvention of DRM etc. (which I believe is still illegal to do?) that means he's in the spotlight?

 

Like I implied, I have no real clue about this stuff but it seems logical to me that these two situations are very different.

 

Joe

[deanb]

Okay I've not yet replied to this and been meaning too. It's late though so nothing too in-depth, that'll be later.

 

@Flaying Gerbil: From my understanding that is correct. While applying the hack to your own consoles is fine, it's the initial reverse engineering and cracking that is not. Which I think should maybe be clarified a bit here. If Sony win this case it won't suddenly mean a raid unit will be crashing through your front door and you get 10 years in guantanamo for hacking your console. Will mean a pretty tough time for Geohot and similar.

And I think that's perfectly reasonable. No one is impeding on your rights to fuck about with the hardware you bought, but companies should also have some guarantee the law is there to back them up in protecting their intellectual property, patents and products. It wouldn't jsut be console makers who'd be wary of trading in a country where the law is fine with folks bypassing your devices security measures.

 

It's kinda how the law says you can't sell fags to kids, but there's no law that says they can't smoke them.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

David Braben agrees with me.

 

Joe

 

P.S. I got that from the News Feed, Dean. Do I get bonus brownie points?!

 

EDIT: The originating article with Braben is interesting he does veer off topic to second hand sales but it is a nice short read.

Edited February 25, 2011 by TheFlyingGerbil

[peteer01]

You guys realize this is a civil suit and has pretty much nothing to do with legality right? Just sayin.

Not saying that he didn't do anything illegal.

Also peteer you realize it's illegal to modify your gun right?

That's the problem with analogies. We're talking about consoles, so is "modifying your gun" a mod chip (illegal in some places) or software...I'll stop using the analogy to make any further points.

 

For hardware...I can understand a mod chip being illegal. For software, the idea that someone can be sued for writing their own code for their own system...sounds a bit too 1984/Brave-New-World to me.

 

As for the fact that this is a civil suit, Ethan already answered that point.

 

- - - - -

 

I thought it might be interesting for some of you that the one claim from the class action lawsuit against Sony for removing Other OS that has survived SCEA's motion to dismiss is the one alleging that SCEA violated the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act

 

That's pretty ironic, because it means that both Sony and George Hotz are facing claims of violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. The issue with Sony's case against George Hotz is that they're using the CFAA to accuse GeoHot of hacking his own system.

 

 

The argument: You’re guilty of felony computer hacking crimes if you access your own computer in a way that violates a contractual restriction found in the fine print of the licensing restriction of the product imposed by the manufacturer.

 

I realize the complaint characterizes the defendants as hackers, and the CFAA is supposed to be about hacking. But think for a moment about the nature of this claim. You bought the computer. You own it. You can sell it. You can light it on fire. You can bring it to the ocean, put it on a life raft, and push it out to sea. But if you dare do anything that violates the fine print of the license that the manufacturer is trying to impose, then you’re guilty of trespassing onto your own property. And it’s not just a civil wrong, it’s a crime. And according to the motion for a TRO, it’s not just a crime, it’s a serious felony crime.

 

I’ve seen a lot of civil cases trying to use the vague language of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act in creative ways. But this is the first case I know of claiming that you can commit an unauthorized access of your own computer.

http://volokh.com/2011/01/13/todays-award-for-the-lawyer-who-has-advocated-the-silliest-theory-of-the-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act/

Another analogy, but this one isn't mine.

Edited February 25, 2011 by peteer01

[RockyRan]

He's not causing people to pirate games. Following your example, wouldn't a gun manufacturer (or someone who shared the information on how to make gunpowder) be punished for gun related deaths?

 

No, not causing, facilitating. Like I said, he's helping advance it. He's not literally going around and pirating games, nor is he writing anything for that purpose, but the fact of the matter is that his crack makes piracy possible. One last time, he doesn't have to directly do anything to be responsible for advancing it.

 

Actually, the court will determine if what GeoHot did is legally allowed or not...and as you said, the law could stand to be less draconian. That's exactly why supporting GeoHot's legal battle, even if you don't care for the guy, is a good thing for consumers rights.

 

That's how it currently stands, but as we all know laws are re-interpreted all the time. The court will decide how it works.

 

 

I very much disagree. Wouldn't it be great to have a Sega CD, Saturn, 3DO and/or Dreamcast emulator on your PS3? A homebrew program that allowed you to stick your existing discs into your PS3 and play them on the PS3 using an emulator? Maybe even a PS2 emulator could have been cobbled together by the homebrew community.

 

I game in a projector room, and the only PCs that are ever in there are a laptop or iMac mini that simply isn't as powerful as I'd like. I use TVersity on my 360, and I love that functionality...homebrew, whether it's emulators, allowing your console to connect to a NAS filled with your media collection, programming your own games or playing other peoples games (XNA and Indie games cover this on the 360)...there are lot of reasons to want to write or use programs on a PS3 instead of a PC. I'm not going to put a PC in my projector/gaming room. I'd love more functionality out of any consoles that are in there.

 

You're assuming I'm against homebrew in general. I love homebrew. I installed it on my Wii when I had one and I used all kinds of neat little applications for it, none of which involved piracy. However, this is different. A platform for homebrew was there. No, it wasn't as open as having full access to the console, but just look at what came out of Other OS. That's right, nothing. Of course you weren't necessarily going to get emulators running in there, but homebrew devs didn't even begin to try writing anything for Other OS. There was no interest to use it as a homebrew platform.

 

You missed my point. My point is that because I'm often in that "tiny, tiny fraction" of people who are affected, I wish more people would realize my plights and help rectify them. If more people actually cared and complained when I'm treated unfairly, I wouldn't find myself dealing with nearly as many issues. That's why I commiserate with the people who miss the functionality.

 

I deal with a bunch of legal and logistical hoops from both governments (Japan and America), would you say that I need to stop being a vocal minority when I speak out about that? Would you say that people who haven't been in my situation first hand should "fuck off if it doesn't affect you" when they try to help me improve the system?

 

Except for that they're not. There is a ridiculous excess of people using Other OS as a bullet point so they can take a jab at Sony. The Sony haters are just drinking this in droves, and are blowing it out of proportion. Again, that's why I'm saying "fuck off if it doesn't affect you". Not because of the fact that it doesn't affect them, but because of the fact that people are jumping on hate bandwagons. They really don't care about homebrew or the platform in general. Hell, they don't even have PS3s or want one, they just want to rag on Sony and are using that as a platform.

 

I agree with their opinion that if there's a "tiny, tiny fraction" of PS3 owners that you don't want to galvanize into regaining lost functionality, it's people who are installing Linux onto their console. I thought they made this point quickly and humorously. Considering their time constraints, how would you have gotten across the message?

 

Again, because Linux are "badass mothafuckas?" Please.

[peteer01]

I hope this isn't a stupid question - if he hacked the system himself and used it for his own entirely legal reasons then that wouldn't be a problem (I believe the mobile phone jailbreaking rulings say this is OK). it's the fact that he released to it to the wider world knowing it would lead to circumvention of DRM etc. (which I believe is still illegal to do?) that means he's in the spotlight?

Not a stupid question, especially since the answer might surprise you...No, even if he hacked the system himself and used it for entirely legal reasons, there would still be a problem. That that is illegal is actually why I quoted the article above. One of the points in Sony's case is that he did hack his own system.

 

(Dean, I'm not sure exactly what you were answering...but reading through the groklaw details on this case, it certainly sounds like Sony's legal council believes that if you agree to the Terms of Use and then violate those ToU by hacking your system yourself for entirely legal uses...you're still in violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which means you've committed a felony. Ridiculous, I know, but that's why I think GeoHot needs support from people who don't fully agree with him, because the alternative is agreeing with draconian rules that are so anti-consumer it's scary.)

 

David Braben agrees with me.

 

EDIT: The originating article with Braben is interesting he does veer off topic to second hand sales but it is a nice short read.

No one's going to disagree with that. Hacking ruins the online experience. Piracy hurts everyone from GameStop to developers to publishers to console makers. There's a lot of people adversely affected by piracy, and hacking...as in the kind of online cheating that ruins other people's play experience...that's something I'd certainly like to avoid.

 

But GeoHot isn't on COD right now on someone's PS3 playing a pirated copy of the game killing people with his flash grenades and spawning them into one hit napalm... I think we all agree that piracy and hacking are absolutely bad for the gaming community and bad for the companies that make their money as part of the gaming ecosystem.

 

But what about the legitimate uses that unsigned code could have? If I could get a PS3 that ran a media extender program that could stream files from my NAS and support a very wide range for audio and video file types, along with playing Blu-ray discs, that alone would probably have been enough for me to have bought a PS3 instead of an HD media extender from WD last year.

 

There are legitimate uses, there are positive benefits, to being able to run your own code on the console you've already bought.

Edited February 25, 2011 by peteer01

[peteer01]

No, not causing, facilitating. Like I said, he's helping advance it. He's not literally going around and pirating games, nor is he writing anything for that purpose, but the fact of the matter is that his crack makes piracy possible. One last time, he doesn't have to directly do anything to be responsible for advancing it.

Inadvertently or not, the work he's done can be used to advance piracy. I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with that point.

 

People were already playing pirated PS3 games at that point, but even if they weren't, the law of unintended consequences means it's pretty easy to inadvertently advance a lot of things. Why are we specifically upset with GeoHot for something he didn't directly do?

 

Actually, the court will determine if what GeoHot did is legally allowed or not...and as you said, the law could stand to be less draconian. That's exactly why supporting GeoHot's legal battle, even if you don't care for the guy, is a good thing for consumers rights.

 

 

That's how it currently stands, but as we all know laws are re-interpreted all the time. The court will decide how it works.

Actually, laws are very rarely re-interpreted, and the verdicts of existing legal cases are used all the time to determine rulings. If this case does go to a final verdict, I'm almost certain it will be a landmark decision, regardless of who wins.

 

To quote The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit:

 

A judicial precedent attaches a specific legal consequence to a detailed set of facts in an adjudged case or judicial decision, which is then considered as furnishing the rule for the determination of a subsequent case involving identical or similar material facts and arising in the same court or a lower court in the judicial hierarchy.

 

So, the outcome of this case will almost certainly "furnish the rule" for future cases involving people who tinker with their own consoles in the future.

Edited February 25, 2011 by peteer01

[deanb]

I was replying to Flying Gerbils "stupid question".

 

I'm with RockyRan. Sony actively went out and included an OtherOS option to facilitate homebrew. They did similar with Yahtzee for PSone and the Linux powered PS2 (even without the Linux version the PS2 launched with a disc that had coding tools to make simple programs and games with). It's not like Sony is actively anti-homebrew. Don't see any other console officially running a regular OS.

And pretty much no one used it. Uni's n scientists pretty much (and I'm unsure if that's even running through OtherOS or a PS3 completely free of XMB FW altogether). If people wanted more of the machines power (which the extra SPE is even locked off from regular developers) to mess with, why they picking a system with 256MB of RAM? Homebrew is working with what you've got, rather than the easier n more obvious solution of making it on the open PC. There was, and still is, very little need to fully crack open the PS3.

 

The crack was pretty much developed for piracy. He's not a fucking retard, he knows that that's what it would be used for. As I mentioned here or another thread it's a bit weird how the 360 has a thing you can do with it's DVD drive to make it play pirated games, and no one has really looked at it to crack open the software onboard. Stick a web browser on, better twitter client. PS3 comes with an option at launch to let you run a linux OS and the software that comes with that. And it then gets cracked open too. It's pretty clear that homebrew is a flimsy shield from which folks like GeoHot hide behind.

 

 

Now thing here is we get taught UK computer law, and as I understand ours is a bit more refined than the US. And also differs in a few areas. I'm unsure which areas though, so in regards to this it may be the same.

Here it's okay to mod your consoles. It is not okay to modify someone elses console. It is not okay to reverse engineer or bypass a security system put in place.

 

Now not only did he reverse engineer n bypass the security systems n such in place, he distributed it. (which also tends to come under copyright infringement laws too if you're a smart lawyer. Maybe some on patents too)

[peteer01]

As I mentioned here or another thread it's a bit weird how the 360 has a thing you can do with it's DVD drive to make it play pirated games, and no one has really looked at it to crack open the software onboard. Stick a web browser on, better twitter client.

The 360 has the XNA and Indie Games. Isn't that what all the people who are actually interested in developing for the 360 would want?

[CorgiShinobi]

Hmm, if I say something slightly negative, said post receives a negative rating. If I say something slightly positive, said post receives positive ratings.

 

I don't care about GeoHot:

 

Oh, but homebrew is fine:

 

But it can lead to piracy:

 

Still, people overreact:

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

And still no mention of fail0verflow...

[deanb]

As I mentioned here or another thread it's a bit weird how the 360 has a thing you can do with it's DVD drive to make it play pirated games, and no one has really looked at it to crack open the software onboard. Stick a web browser on, better twitter client.

The 360 has the XNA and Indie Games. Isn't that what all the people who are actually interested in developing for the 360 would want?

The PS3 had OtherOS. Shouldn't that of done for what the homebrew folks wanted?

N XNA is for game dev. Hardly going to let you do things with the 360 it's not meant to be able to do like play youtube video or run a browser or something.

 

And still no mention of fail0verflow...

 

That's cos GeoHot is a face folks can stick a story to, and he really helps with that. Like Assange/Wikileaks, Anon/Anon, Colon Sanders/KFC etc.

[NeoStarr]

Now not only did he reverse engineer n bypass the security systems n such in place, he distributed it.

 

 

He wasn't the only one. lawl.