Apple

[Johnny]

Also Apple have fallen afoul of copying a Swedish train/clock firms clock design without license.

http://news.cnet.com...s-clock-design/

 

Switzerland and Sweden are actually not the same countries

[Eleven]

At least they're not both smartphones... but yeah. They probably intended to copy that exactly (like a "Hey! That's a cool iconic clock!"). I think that's what they did with the podcast app. There was an article about that looking like a piece of vintage classic hardware. Probably didn't do diligence on checking if it was actually trademarked or whatever.

 

While I won't agree that Steve Jobs would let the "dated" iOS slide (I think that he will be perfectly fine with how iOS is right now), I do think that he won't let this Maps abomination slide. For iPhone 4 users (like me!), it's all bad, since turn by turn and flyover is not even there. So there's no plus side to using that map. What the hell were they thinking of replacing the Maps app for countries that don't even have map data available??? I wonder who gave the go signal on that one...

 

Google maps coming to iPhone would be great. I wonder if it'll have it's own turn by turn? Well I hope Google makes it on par with the Android app, since apparently it's a very good map app.

Edited September 21, 2012 by eleven

[TheMightyEthan]

Google Maps is great on Android. I haven't used my standalone GPS once since I got my Android phone.

[deanb]

Also Apple have fallen afoul of copying a Swedish train/clock firms clock design without license.

http://news.cnet.com...s-clock-design/

Switzerland and Sweden are actually not the same countries

Stupid early morning reading.

[fuchikoma]

While I've pointed out security issues on Android, I'd also agree that iOS is getting dated. Furthermore, certain things like the notification area are actually more annoying than they are helpful (it pulls down from the top of the screen at any time.) I'm actually not even that fond of multitasking, as it led to background programs hogging RAM and sometimes downloading hundreds of MB on my data plan after I've finished using them. Now they have to be babysat and not only exited, but killed, when finished. (Quit used to be "home." Now it's "home... home-home... hold icon until it shakes, tap close box... home.") OS3 had some limited background task ability, but was still quick and simple to use.

 

One feature that stands out to me these days is sharing... As it is now, when a bunch of my friends are together, we can play multiplayer games on iOS, except the one guy with an HTC who is on his own. Apple should take advantage of that saturation and have quick sharing features like Samsung is touting. If I had a Galaxy S3, I would never be able to use any of the slick quick-sharing features because I don't know anyone with anything similar to it, but if iOS did it, I'd be able to share stuff with almost anyone. That's doable, but requires everyone to have the same third-party app now. If the quality of the camera permits it, it'd also be nice to have the feature where the handset shoots a quick burst and lets you pick which photos to keep. They have made a slight improvement to the camera in iOS 5 though, since you can now access it directly from a locked phone and snap photos and review them without exposing other photos that wouldn't be accessible when locked. They also allowed using a volume button as a shutter button when turned sideways, which was forbidden, I think all through Steve Jobs' reign.

 

Eleven, the calculator and podcast apps copy work from Dieter Rams, a famous industrial designer.

 

I'm not sure how it works as a replacement, but Google Earth has been available for iOS for a long time. I've just stopped using it because it was a total battery hog.

Edited September 21, 2012 by fuchikoma

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Stuff like Android Beam isn't limited to the S3. It's Android. Everything can be as open as you want it to be.

Also, you could take pictures with the volume buttons on iOS4 and probably before. I'm always amazed at how many iPhone users don't know this.

 

Google Earth is not the same as maps. Maps= navigation, public transportation, etc.

[Eleven]

Also, you could take pictures with the volume buttons on iOS4 and probably before. I'm always amazed at how many iPhone users don't know this.

 

Because it wasn't allowed before iOS5 (iOS 4 didn't have it, and Camera+ was removed from the store for doing this).

 

Then as part of iOS 5 (innovation!) they added support for that for the native camera. Then Camera+ added it back. I like iOS and Apple but I admit they do some ridiculous things like that!

 

EDIT: oh... fuchi already said that... but there you go. You might be thinking of Camera+.

Edited September 21, 2012 by eleven

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I actually think I'm just off by one on my iOS versions.

[fuchikoma]

Stuff like Android Beam isn't limited to the S3. It's Android. Everything can be as open as you want it to be.

 

Ok, then I know one person with something similar enough to do it. I used to also know one coworker with one, but overall, it'd be a cool feature with nowhere to use it in my case. I think Apple should really get to it, and if it's patented, just license it, because they already make the new "default phone."

[deanb]

Apple still don't have NFC support, so they wouldn't be able to do it. Also you only know one other Android user? Small pool of friends or a very weirdly lop-sided one? (Though I'd agree it's odd that here 2/3 phones in this house are One X's)

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Stuff like Android Beam isn't limited to the S3. It's Android. Everything can be as open as you want it to be.

 

Ok, then I know one person with something similar enough to do it. I used to also know one coworker with one, but overall, it'd be a cool feature with nowhere to use it in my case. I think Apple should really get to it, and if it's patented, just license it, because they already make the new "default phone."

 

What the hell are you talking about? More people own Android phones than Apple phones. Like Dean said, Apple still doesn't have NFC, which btw, is a universal standard that doesn't need any lawsuits. But since it's universal that likely means Apple won't use it.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, apparently I know the exact opposite people as Fuchi. Everyone I know has an Android phone except my sister who has an iPhone.

[fuchikoma]

Apple still don't have NFC support, so they wouldn't be able to do it. Also you only know one other Android user? Small pool of friends or a very weirdly lop-sided one? (Though I'd agree it's odd that here 2/3 phones in this house are One X's)

 

Small pool of friends on my phone list, but not that lopsided - when I worked at the local college doing IT support, people would bring phones in all the time to get them set up for email or MS Exchange, and I'd set up about 10 iPhones for every Android (about 1-2 years ago.)

 

And I thought their NFC was only supposed to work within about 5cm? Yet in the commercials here they show photos being shared with people in the area of the same room. That would probably mean Bluetooth or Wi-fi, which are both ancient on iOS. It's how most third party apps do it already; I'm just saying that Apple should do something analogous officially so it's standard and common.

 

What the hell are you talking about? More people own Android phones than Apple phones. Like Dean said, Apple still doesn't have NFC, which btw, is a universal standard that doesn't need any lawsuits. But since it's universal that likely means Apple won't use it.

 

For such a dominant platform, you sure leap to its defense a lot whenever anything is questioned, or even discussed about it... I thought it was clear that I was talking about my own experience with it when I said "in my case," so you can spin numbers (or allude to them) but it doesn't make it any more of a practical investment for me personally since it wouldn't bring me much solace knowing that this feature I can't use could hypothetically be used with a bunch of people I've never met. Also keep in mind that the market for a product isn't perfectly smooth and equal worldwide. In Japan, PS3s outnumber 360s 4.38:1. In North America, it's 0.65:1. Where I live, I don't see a lot of Androids in actual use.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I'm just saying that Apple should do something analogous officially so it's standard and common.

 

In terms of phones Apple doesn't do anything standard and common. iMessage is great proof of that. They haven't had the same success that they've had with AirPlay.

 

Where I live, I don't see a lot of Androids in actual use.

 

I'm curious about this. Where do you live where you see this disparity? Living in Seattle I just see shitloads of smartphones in general and the most common is definitely Android though I know plenty of people with iPhones as well.

 

Also, when we're talking about something that will be used by other people besides you, I don't think you should be so selfish. That's why I bring up universal standards. Ideally, everything should work with every phone. Which is why in Europe Apple has to provide micro-usb adapters for iPhones.

[deanb]

Which advert? The S3 advert shows the NFC with the two girls pushing their phones together to send the photo they just took. There is a Wi-Fi share though, which yeah is pretty old hat. Though I'm with FDS, Apple don't do things in a standard manner. Like SMS standard.

 

As for the Micro-USB adapter I wonder what the fuck is being sent in manilla envelopes to EC over here cos the micro-USB adapters go against the idea of going all to Micro-USB to reduce electrical waste. And now they have a ton of adaptors for their new plug too :/ Yet I've not seen a single rumble on that front for going after Apple on flagrantly ignoring the directives.

[fuchikoma]

I'm just saying that Apple should do something analogous officially so it's standard and common.

 

In terms of phones Apple doesn't do anything standard and common. iMessage is great proof of that. They haven't had the same success that they've had with AirPlay.

 

Um... iMessage is an optional service that kicks in if the best form of messaging between you isn't just SMS or MMS. Automatic, encrypted texting over Wi-fi. What's the bad part of that?

 

I'm curious about this. Where do you live where you see this disparity? Living in Seattle I just see shitloads of smartphones in general and the most common is definitely Android though I know plenty of people with iPhones as well.

 

Central Alberta, Canada. I should also note that behind iPhones, Blackberries were sort of common, though trending down fast. You can also get an Android phone anywhere you want to - it's not like they're unavailable in any way.

 

Also, when we're talking about something that will be used by other people besides you, I don't think you should be so selfish. That's why I bring up universal standards. Ideally, everything should work with every phone. Which is why in Europe Apple has to provide micro-usb adapters for iPhones.

 

Please, explain how it is selfish to suggest that Apple is getting behind on features and should add things that will help people? Or is it somehow just "selfish" to suggest Android isn't all over the place? Maybe it's selfish just to use Apple products?

 

Which advert? The S3 advert shows the NFC with the two girls pushing their phones together to send the photo they just took. There is a Wi-Fi share though, which yeah is pretty old hat. Though I'm with FDS, Apple don't do things in a standard manner. Like SMS standard.

 

shows it, though it wasn't the one I was thinking of - wow, they have tons of ads for this thing. They don't show any sync action, and they say it's only on the S3. And I admit I came into iPhones at the 3GS, but it has always supported ordinary SMS. When the first iPhone was launched, it didn't support MMS officially, but that is not normal SMS. (Also, no one is saying they're not slow to support things - like A2DP for instance.)

 

As for the Micro-USB adapter I wonder what the fuck is being sent in manilla envelopes to EC over here cos the micro-USB adapters go against the idea of going all to Micro-USB to reduce electrical waste. And now they have a ton of adaptors for their new plug too :/ Yet I've not seen a single rumble on that front for going after Apple on flagrantly ignoring the directives.

 

I'm curious about that too. It's a non-issue here, but I figured they'd support it in Europe with the next release. That would require additional, redundant ports to be added for things like video output however, so I'm not really behind that directive. It forces the use of older technologies. IMO it's silly to buy a device that's specifically made for a kind of phone or MP3 player in the first place, but come on... they have now changed connectors once. If I got an iPhone 5 some day and it came with a cable to plug into a PC... there would be literally no problem because I'd no more buy a stereo for an iPhone than for a Motorola RAZR or an oldschool iPod.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Quote city up there.

 

iMessage: It defaults to "reply all" with group messages (can't remember if it fixed it) so anyone who doens't have iMessage sees what the iPhone user is sending to everyone. What it uses for group texts is not at all standard. Like with emoji it's something that really only works well with other iPhone users. Though apparently the next/newest version of emoji works for everyone which is good.

 

Selfishness: I don't know how you misinterpreted that considering my use of the word "universal." There are many things that should be operating system agnostic. Bluetooth is. Your cell phone signal is. That's what should be strived for. Things should not be limited to either Apple or Android. The big worry here is that Apple is developing their own tech similar to NFC rather than just using NFC. Windows 8 and Android both use NFC. I think it's even been on some other devices like Blackberries.

 

Also, MMS is "normal." It's a standardized feature across all carriers.

 

About ports and shit: http://en.wikipedia....Definition_Link This is one of those universal things. It doesn't belong to anyone specific and provides enhanced functionality over micro usb while using the same port. JB also has stuff like audio over USB now (one area where Android is definitely lacking) so it's nice to see this stuff more widely used rather than being dependent on a specific accessory ecosystem that you can't use with anything else.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[fuchikoma]

Well yeah, it's quote city. If you say anything less than complimentary about Android, even if it's

, you get browbeat until you shut up about it. I'm just responding to the wave of inquisition that's been levelled at me here for saying the Apple ought to add more features that are on some Android phones, and that it'd be more useful for me there since I only know one Android user(!!)

 

So if you send a group message to everyone, by default, replies will be to everyone. I haven't run into that because it's apparently an American feature and not "standard" elsewhere, but other apps I have such as Voxer or Skype also work that way, as do conference calls. I'm not seeing the proprietary nature of it for that. Also not seeing it because users without iMessage just get standard, universally recognized SMS messages. I guess it's an unusual default apparently?

 

Emoji as Apple did it is a feature for users of the mobile carrier SoftBank, whatever phone they have. It's not Apple's thing - it's more that they supported it, and people found ways to unlock it in other markets. Apple just accidentally brought it outside Japan, where it apparently met an unaddressed need for some.

 

The selfish jab is still very unclear. I guess I'm selfish for not finding features on your favourite OS useful... If I weren't so selfish, more people I know would be using Androids. I'm not calling for it to be removed for anyone. So is it selfish to not see a lot of people using open standards? I'm seeing a definite false dichotomy between Apple and common standards... Yes, Apple supports GSM, HSDPA, MP4, MP3, WAV, AIFF, JPG, PNG, GIF, PDF, DOC, DOCX and other MS Office formats, various Bluetooth profiles now including A2DP... Do you see Apple making their own NFC tech, or is this just speculation? They'll probably do the usual thing and wait until users widely, seriously want it, then unveil it to much rejoicing while other vendors roll their eyes. But seriously, this Apple proprietary thing is taking on the same unthinking meme status as when it's levelled at Sony. Apple is slow to implement standards, but supports common standards, because that's what users need them to do. Cases where they don't are generally with good reason, and low impact. Right now I can think of... one, below.

 

MMS is normal, standardized, and supported by Apple. I was responding to Dean's accusation that "Apple don't do things in a standard manner. Like SMS standard." Well, they supported SMS from the start, and MMS != SMS. Different protocol, different features, different billing. It's an extention. MMS is SMS like Win95 is DOS. Apple should have supported it right away, but it wasn't that they ran off and made up their own standard instead - just that they took their sweet time to put it into their first product in that market, so the point you guys are trying to raise about it is kind of falling flat here. It's not "not doing things in a standard manner," as much as "not doing everything you could ask for on the first try."

 

MHL is a proposed standard that is in development. While I'm comparing the S3 to the iPhone so much, the S3 supports MHL... with a proprietary 11-pin connector to allow use of MHL and USB simultaneously, and let the S3 power the MHL-HDMI adapter. This is MHL compliant, because the connector is not part of the standard, though it breaks compatibility even with many Samsung accessories.

 

Apple had a multi-pin proprietary adapter for similar reasons (USB, audio, video out, controls, charging etc.) which they used for 11 years... now they change it once and everyone flips out on them. Presumably the new one will be used well into the future as well since unlike USB, it doesn't lock them down long-term to a particular standard. They probably didn't want to sit around and wait for something like MHL to become concrete or release a half-baked standard that may change, later requiring people to buy more adapters than necessary. Apple haters will no doubt scoff at this suggestion though because they're already making people buy (well, offering them) adapters once a decade as it is, instead of sticking with a connector from 2001 forever or hacking out features to support a mandate to use dated tech.

 

(edit, edit, edit: Redundancy, grammar, spelling, this post has it all... intermittently)

Edited September 22, 2012 by fuchikoma

[deanb]

In order for Apple to be able to do "Group SMS", something that SMS doesn't support at all, they have to pull quite the hack. This hack works seamlessly for other iOS devices, they're built to accept this hack of SMS, but every other device built to comply with the SMS standard doesn't work with how iOS does a group SMS. I'm not saying that MMS isn't the standard, it's Apples "Group SMS" stuff that is non-standard. It's a bit like MS and their old use of their own HTML. Worked fine if you used IE, but sucks if you were on a standards complaint browser. Yeah it works out neat if you're within that ecosystem, but if you're not then it kinda fucks you over.

 

As for MHL that works over micro-USB. As does data transfer and charging, and it complies with EU electrical waste directives. Apples "Lightning" doesn't. USB is a standard that has been around for nearly two decades now and has frequent updates, so hardly something to be locked down to. Unlike Firewire which Apple have since ditched last year in favour of Thunderbolt and no doubt will be ditched again.

 

Oh n here is aforementioned EU Directive (Which aren't exactly laws, but close enough), and as you can easily see the point of the directive is to cut down on electrical waste and having adaptors of all shapes n sizes to both fit to older existing iPod accessories and the Micro-USB standard doesn't do that at all.

[fuchikoma]

I'll have to take your word for it on Group SMS since it's not even an option here, iPhone or not.

 

I'd heard of the micro-USB directive and feel much the same now as when they brought it in: It's a really laudable concept, though it would have been useful if it was introduced before almost everyone started putting USB mini-B on everything, back in the era when a phone COULD link to a PC, but it was assumed it probably wouldn't. My Nokia 3220 required a $50 (or $80?) OEM cable. I got a $30 knockoff with spotty connectivity and it only worked with a few Nokias. It would have been just as hard to connect my 5165 if there was much reason to. My Motorola KRZR had a USB mini-B port that did everything, but software locks kept most users (of this carrier) from updating ringtones.

 

I really have no problem with Apple's new connector though. If I'm not mistaken, until now, they've been using the connector for the iPod, with wiring for the iPod video. They've kept compatibility-breaking changes to an absolute minimum since 2001 - though in the time up to 2005, the proprietary dock allowed them to add USB, remove Firewire and add a video feed, while maintaining compatibility with older iPod accessories. That is not much waste at all... This is what I envision for the Lightning connector. For now, they connect it to USB 2.0. Maybe later, it will be Thunderbolt. I've heard speculation that 2 pins are reserved so far, and also that it adapts to match its usage - maybe later it'll have a full USB or Thunderbolt connection, and a passthrough to some peripheral or memory expansion (if Apple ever goes that way...) If they just had a USB port, then these changes would require changing the port on the device. Also, it seems MHL may be able to use whatever pins USB has, but not simultaneously while using it as a proper USB port, which is one reason Samsung went 11-pin. What if you want to watch a video off your device on TV while adding files to it? I don't know why you'd need to, but why build a new architecture to barely meet your current needs?

 

So I think the waste reduction directive proponents have their hearts in the right place, but there are also strong cases to be made for exceptions to this. If Apple was dropping a new unique connector every 3 years, it'd be another story.

[TheMightyEthan]

My one contribution to this conversation is going to be to say that I think adhering to standards is good simply because they're standards, even if a proprietary equivalent is, strictly speaking, superior. It's just good to have everything work and play nice together.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

"It's not I who is butthurt good sir, but it is you."

 

Calm down dude.

 

Anyways, I really don't think you realize how ubiquitous micro USB has become. Yeah sure, mini was a thing for a while, but it wasn't a major thing. Nowadays it's impossible to not find something that uses micro besides Apple products. Phones, which are by far the most purchased portable devices these days, all use micro USB. You're also throwing around a lot of ifs. Either way, why not move towards universal standards for such things rather than always being restricted and having to buy a specific set of accessories/products for compatibility? Why can't it just work?

 

I'm not saying that the Lightning sucks or anything. I just think that it's definitely a negative that it's not universal. I have to go buy another one if it breaks whereas with micro usb myself and millions of others have tons just laying around since they've been in our products for a few years now.

[fuchikoma]

"It's not I who is butthurt good sir, but it is you."

 

Calm down dude.

 

Seriously? You leveled an ad hominem that utterly failed to check out, so to deflect scrutiny you drop a strawman that's just as misplaced? You say some strange things when flustered. Remember, I'm the one addressing the points and you're the one questioning the speaker's state. I just made what I thought was a pretty uncontroversial statement and then spent several posts responding point by point to waves of arguments. At the end of the day you're going to think what you want to think anyway; I just thought I'd raise some points and see if there was a good counterargument to them (you see, there are actually a few Androids like the S3 that I think look really good - but there's the issue I mentioned of being almost the only guy with one if I got it. I want one in the world Samsung shows, not the one I live in.) I didn't realize how much of a holy cow this was though, so I guess I'll leave it alone in the future.

 

And yeah, of course USB is a common connector. Several generations ago, mini-B already became ubiquitous and as phones got smaller, micro USB rose in popularity. There was a real need to standardize back when each cable only worked with a handful of phones. Like I said, I just don't think it's such a big deal if Apple releases a new proprietary connector every decade or so because it's seriously not that inconvenient, and it's nicer to have more features than less (though apparently even that is controversial, who knew?) Besides, micro USB has only been around about 1/3 as long as the 30-pin dock anyway - it requires just as much retooling and cable/adapter buying - at least it would for me, since the only things it'd go into are a Bluetooth headset and a hypothetical phone. It'd be nicer if everything did everything with cheap universal parts that everyone had lying around - I just don't see that happening with either solution - at best you can choose to do everything or accommodate everyone, and even the latter isn't that realistic yet, though with it you could switch brands if you buy a lot of phones. Ah well, at least we know where we stand on this, but it seems like a sticking point regardless.

[Mister Jack]

Welp, I went and preordered the new ipod touch. First time I've ever bothered to pre-order an Apple product but dammit I want a new MP3 player with more storage space.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

^You could have done that for cheaper and with better sound quality.

 

@fuchi

 

I was pointing out that you're the one acting butthurt here, typing way too much, getting worked up over nothing and not being able to view things objectively.

 

I think this sentence best sums up what's so wrong about everything you're saying:

 

It'd be nicer if everything did everything with cheap universal parts that everyone had lying around

 

This is exactly what already exists with micro usb. You're just far too deep into Apple's closed off technologies to see any other way.