MasterDex Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I think the comparison to Edge Games is somewhat relevant because when it boils down to it, both cases are about the ability to trademark a single, common word. I think that's crazy. Yes we can say that there is some similarity between TES and Scrolls in that they're both based on Fantasy and have the word scrolls in their title but that's about it. That's kind of like saying, "Yes, there's some similarities to Dungeon & Dragons and Lord of the Rings, like halflings, dwarves, elves, and orcs, but that's about it." Well yeah, when it comes down to it. Sure, you could mention some other similarities but they're essentially cut from the same cloth...well, one helped stitch the cloth but you get what I mean. You said: "Because a card game called Scrolls with Vikings and magic stuff can't possibly be confused with the super-popular The Elder Scrolls with Vikings and magic stuff." I'm saying that it won't be confused with the super-popular (known better by their subtitles) The Elder Scrolls because there's only a narrative/background genre tying the two together, unless...Is Skyrim going to be a card game? If Bethesda succeeds with getting the Scrolls name changed then it opens up the industry to a whole load of frivolous suits that are just going to be bad for developers, not to mention the chain that will be woven tightly around the necks of developers as they think of a title for their game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgamemnonV2 Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Well yeah, when it comes down to it. Sure, you could mention some other similarities but they're essentially cut from the same cloth...well, one helped stitch the cloth but you get what I mean. You do know that Tolkien Enterprises has brought a few lawsuits against Wizards of the Coast over a number of things in regards to their naming guidelines? Any folks who were there for AD&D 1st ED can tell you that Halfings used to be called Hobbits until they got slapped with a lawsuit. Gygax got away with a lot more, such as the designs for Orcs and the inclusion of Wargs as worgs (plus it's also rooted in mythology). You said:"Because a card game called Scrolls with Vikings and magic stuff can't possibly be confused with the super-popular The Elder Scrolls with Vikings and magic stuff." I'm saying that it won't be confused with the super-popular (known better by their subtitles) The Elder Scrolls because there's only a narrative/background genre tying the two together, unless...Is Skyrim going to be a card game? I certainly thought it was a card game in conjunction with Skyrim, considering I knew the relationship Notch had with Bethesda before the project was announced, especially once I saw some of the sample art. This is not far-fetched in any single way--there are far too similarities here. Bethesda legal probably would've just snubbed their nose at it if it was named something else but alas there's that last nail in the coffin there to draw their ire and honestly, I don't blame them. If Bethesda succeeds with getting the Scrolls name changed then it opens up the industry to a whole load of frivolous suits that are just going to be bad for developers, not to mention the chain that will be woven tightly around the necks of developers as they think of a title for their game. Pish-posh. The industry are deals with loads of "frivolous" lawsuits. If Bethesda gets Notch to change the name then it'll mean he'll have to be a bit more creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Scrolls: The Elder Scrolls: If we were talking Riot Games or Runic then I'd be yeah this looks kinda similar. But as we're not I'm gonna go with a noooo. As MasterDex has said most of the time the Elder Scrolls games are known by their subtitles. Which is going to be a major stickler with proving consumer confusion. Especially when Bethesda themselves constantly refer to them as "Skyrim" or "Oblivion" etc. Minecraft, and as an extension Mojang, also has enough consumer awareness that it would be hard for consumers to confuse the two companies too. One is a full on RPG with a more realistic look the other is a card game with a cartoony art style. Might n Magic don't have much trouble with Magic: The Gathering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) You do know that Tolkien Enterprises has brought a few lawsuits against Wizards of the Coast over a number of things in regards to their naming guidelines? Any folks who were there for AD&D 1st ED can tell you that Halfings used to be called Hobbits until they got slapped with a lawsuit. Gygax got away with a lot more, such as the designs for Orcs and the inclusion of Wargs as worgs (plus it's also rooted in mythology). There's a difference between using a created word like Hobbit and using a common word like Scrolls, surely you can see that? Also, Orcs and Wargs weren't created by Tolkien so they were just frivolous claims. I certainly thought it was a card game in conjunction with Skyrim, considering I knew the relationship Notch had with Bethesda before the project was announced, especially once I saw some of the sample art. This is not far-fetched in any single way--there are far too similarities here. Bethesda legal probably would've just snubbed their nose at it if it was named something else but alas there's that last nail in the coffin there to draw their ire and honestly, I don't blame them. You're saying there are far too many similarities but you haven't really went into what they are apart from the fact that they're both set in fantasy worlds and the titles both contain the word Scrolls Pish-posh. The industry are deals with loads of "frivolous" lawsuits. If Bethesda gets Notch to change the name then it'll mean he'll have to be a bit more creative. A bit more creative? Being backed into a corner and told "You can't use this common word, this common word, this common word, etc, etc, ad infinitum" doesn't promote creativity, it stifles it. It limits what you can call your game out of fear of being sued. That's not a good thing at all. Edited August 12, 2011 by MasterDex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9038258448/hey-bethesda-lets-settle-this No way in Hell would this happen but if Hell freezes over, I better get to see streams of the matches. (And see another lawsuit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/116454529612005376 I guess that may explain a lot, also pokes a hole in Zenimaxs argument if that's truly the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 And it moves forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Good! I really don't see this turning in Bethesda's favour in court and I'd be very disappointed if it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 http://dl.dropbox.co...ningsansokan.7z The court papers for anyone interested. Some is Swedish, some is English. From what I can gather the juicy important bits are all in Swedish. the 10MB PDF (Bilaga 4) is the one I think where it was mentioned they're presenting the sarcastic comments of people purposefully confusing Scrolls n Skyrim and Mojang n Bethesda as evidence of confusion. Also Skyrim is the 14th Elder Scrolls game? Oh here's the torrent/magnet link from Notch himself in case you don't want to destroy my dropbox allowance: http://t.co/f1tuWMJF edit: Nope it's Bilaga 19. Bilaga 4 may have similar comments too, but Bilaga 19 is from Joystiq so you can easily read it. Another one of the documents is a print out of the Warcraft Wikipedia article. http://www.joystiq.com/2011/09/08/minecon-attendees-get-alpha-codes-for-cobalt-scrolls/ The first comment and it's replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 http://www.industrygamers.com/news/scrolls-dispute-zenimax-speaks-out/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/10/13/the-name-game-inside-the-scrolls-case/ Thus both sides more or less spoke out. I dunno, from reading the comments, how much is riding on this case? Some people are making a big fuss while others, like me, are going "Meh. since we don't see it as a big deal if Mojang wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/126196998826242048 They won the interim injunction. Basically while the full legal preceding are yet to come, Zenimaz haven't managed to stop them using the Scrolls name in the meantime. Which is good for Mojang cos if they'd lost today even if they won the main stuff they wouldn't be able to use the name "Scrolls" in regards to their game from now until the games launch/when the court case happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbassman39 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 From what I understand is that Bethesda didn't go after notch because they didn't like his name, they did it because they needed to protect the name leaving legal grounds because in the US if they chose not to do it, and someone makes a game called "The Older Scrolls" and Bethesda takes them to court they will bring up the Notch game "Scrolls" and say "you did not pursue them, so there fore you are picking and choosing which games to take to court." Its such BS, but its how our legal system works, you have to lay down the grounds of protecting your name at any moment, even if you lose, which we all hoped and figured it would, because if you don't you are setting a legal precedent saying that you don't care as much. That is why the legal system in America is... so loopy. You have to protect every copyright you own at all times, even if it is just silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 They need to police a mark, which they've done just by stating they think their is confusion and getting in contact with Mojang about it. There's no requirement to go to court or owning a trademark would get very very expensive indeed. That's entirely on Zenimax' back, and it's entirely Zenimaxs interpretation that the trademark would cause confusion too, they've got to prove that. Also of note cos I've seen a few folks bring up USPTO n such: It's a European case with OHIM. It's why the court filings are in Swedish (it's taking place in Stokholm, same country as Mojang) (Also you put copyright instead of trademark. Different things) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbassman39 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 They need to police a mark, which they've done just by stating they think their is confusion and getting in contact with Mojang about it. There's no requirement to go to court or owning a trademark would get very very expensive indeed. That's entirely on Zenimax' back, and it's entirely Zenimaxs interpretation that the trademark would cause confusion too, they've got to prove that. Also of note cos I've seen a few folks bring up USPTO n such: It's a European case with OHIM. It's why the court filings are in Swedish (it's taking place in Stokholm, same country as Mojang) (Also you put copyright instead of trademark. Different things) Well then, it seems that, from my understanding, that I am a bit wrong about the facts. Thanks for clearing that up Also, my bad for copyright instead of trademark. It seems that Zenimax wanted something more out of it than what I had originally understood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Yeah I'm not really understanding why Zenimax are so heavily pushing this. They've done what needed to be done, had the opportunity to settle out of court too if Notch is to be believed. Yet they're pushing so hard despite their marketing dept possibly screeching in their ear at the damage they're doing to the brand they're trying to protect. Thing is if they win it sets a dangerous precedent. Make a puzzle game involving the cunning use of reflective surfaces and called it "Mirrors", EA now owns your ass. (Heck make a puzzle platformer called Edge..) If only we had some lawyer, maybe one specializing in video games, who could maybe give us some insight into why Zenimax are carrying out this seemingly insane act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 My theory: people are irrational and stubborn, especially when it comes to admitting they're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 There's a quick and easy way to solve this in court. Bring in 10 people off the street. These are the "reasonable persons". Ask them a couple of simple questions. Did you ever play/hear of the game: The Elder Scrolls Four? I'm willing to bet the majority say no. Then ask Did you ever play/hear of the game: Oblivion? I'm willing to be the majority say yes. I tested that theory on a friend yesterday and it turned out as I thought. Bethesda lessened their hold on their trademark by using a subtitle for each game and referring to those games most commonly by their subtitles. Considering this along with the fact that the case is being taken up in a home court for Mojang, I'm willing to bet that Bethesda will come away with nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowKnow Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 There's a quick and easy way to solve this in court. Bring in 10 people off the street. These are the "reasonable persons". Ask them a couple of simple questions. Did you ever play/hear of the game: The Elder Scrolls Four? I'm willing to bet the majority say no. Then ask Did you ever play/hear of the game: Oblivion? I'm willing to be the majority say yes. I tested that theory on a friend yesterday and it turned out as I thought. Bethesda lessened their hold on their trademark by using a subtitle for each game and referring to those games most commonly by their subtitles. Considering this along with the fact that the case is being taken up in a home court for Mojang, I'm willing to bet that Bethesda will come away with nothing. Speaking of lawyers, they told me that:1. essentially it all boils down to whether the relevant public are likely to be confused into thinking that our “Scrolls” game is connected with Bethesda or its games, taking all the circumstances into account; and 2. apparently the “moron in a hurry” doesn’t count (http://en.wikipedia....oron_in_a_hurry) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 You wouldn't be pitting one against the other and then saying only a moron in a hurry would be misled. Instead you'd be showing how the general public recognises 'The Elder Scrolls' games by their subtitle primarily. If a game came out called simply 'Oblivion' then I'd say that Bethesda had some sort of a case but a game called 'Scrolls' or perhaps 'The Elders', I don't think there's any case at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 From my understanding they never trademarked the sub-titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) From my understanding they never trademarked the sub-titles. Looking at the back of my Oblivion case I see The Elder Scrolls®: Oblivion™ so it's not registered but they probably wouldn't have too much trouble defending it considering how often they use just the subtitles to refer to each game in the series and the success and popularity that Oblivion garnered when it released. Before I thought to check the back of the case , I did a google search to try and confirm what you're saying and it brought up articles about them filing an Oblivion trademark for movies too. Edited October 20, 2011 by MasterDex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Nevermind, it's trademarked, but as a separate thing. So try n make a RTS called "Fate of Oblivion" and see how far you go eh. btw for those curious you can search US Trademarks here. And EU Trademarks here. Regarding films they file most of them under that too. You don't apply for one trademark, you apply for one trademark in one area. Filing a trademark for an Oblivion film is just covering their asses. Turns out GSC (the STALKER guys) have a TM out on Oblivion too. "Oblivion Lost". Now that's obviously never transpired as a game, wonder why... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 So they came to a settlement. Bethesda gets the trademark of Scrolls, and Mojang get's to use that trademark so long as they don't make an RPG game like The Elder Scrolls. Which means Mojang are making the exact same game there were already making, with the exact same name they were already using, but Bethesda now have a new trademark in their roster and made everyone a little bit poorer than when they started (except the lawyers). What a fucking farce. Even more so when in a few years down the line Bethesda take Mojang to court over the trademark use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 *sigh* Scrolls is way too general a word to trademark. Then again... *looks at Apple.* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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