TheMightyEthan Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Why not? As long as you're getting a full game, why does it bother you? If you think they're over charging for the DLC, don't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Well I'd argue your not getting really getting the full game when you buy it new. The full game would contain all of the characters available. as well as....I mean its just so excessive. You don't have a problem with $46 worth of DLC? DLC that is already on the disc and already produced? it doesn't bother you? I'm not buying the game because of all this. maybe $20 for everything put together but all that stuff separately is a rip off. Edited March 17, 2012 by excel_excel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 It doesn't bother me as long as what's on the disc (and unlocked) without any of the DLC is a full game (not the full game, and that's an important distinction). I'm not buying the game either, but that's because I don't like fighting games. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 On 3/16/2012 at 11:59 PM, excel_excel said: Well I'd argue your not getting really getting the full game when you buy it new. The full game would contain all of the characters available. as well as....I mean its just so excessive. You don't have a problem with $46 worth of DLC? DLC that is already on the disc and already produced? it doesn't bother you? I'm not buying the game because of all this. maybe $20 for everything put together but all that stuff separately is a rip off. You should go back and read through the thread. I'll summarize -The game already has a massive amount of content not including the DLC -The DLC was created by a different team altogether -There is no confirmation as to whether or not the DLC is even balanced or ready for the game though apparently the characters are usable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftwaffles Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 On 3/16/2012 at 11:59 PM, excel_excel said: Well I'd argue your not getting really getting the full game when you buy it new. The full game would contain all of the characters available. as well as....I mean its just so excessive. You don't have a problem with $46 worth of DLC? DLC that is already on the disc and already produced? it doesn't bother you? I'm not buying the game because of all this. maybe $20 for everything put together but all that stuff separately is a rip off. It's funny because I think the PC version is coming with all the DLC unlocked already, just because they know people would go through and change those few lines of code to unlock them all for free anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 On 3/17/2012 at 2:06 AM, Sporkwaffles said: On 3/16/2012 at 11:59 PM, excel_excel said: Well I'd argue your not getting really getting the full game when you buy it new. The full game would contain all of the characters available. as well as....I mean its just so excessive. You don't have a problem with $46 worth of DLC? DLC that is already on the disc and already produced? it doesn't bother you? I'm not buying the game because of all this. maybe $20 for everything put together but all that stuff separately is a rip off. It's funny because I think the PC version is coming with all the DLC unlocked already, just because they know people would go through and change those few lines of code to unlock them all for free anyway. Which only highlights the difference between how developers and publishers treat both platforms. On console, it's a no fear, cash grab. They think "Will this fly? It's the console, of course it will!" whereas on PC it's all fear and get in and out quickly. They think "This isn't going to fly! The fuckers will just unlock it themselves! Let's hold it back 6 months, do as little as we need to to get the game running on this pirate-infested platform and then complain about how all that piracy cost us sales and blame the pirates for no-on buying any DLC." In otherwords, they do it because they can. @FDS: Even if the game has a bunch of content, the DLC was made by a different team or it's not balanced yet for play, does it not strike you as greedy to have what the publisher has valued as $46 of content on the disc and locked away from you? When I buy a game, I expect to get whatever comes on the disc. The definition of DLC is Downloadable Content, if all I need to download is the access key then how can it be considered DLC. It's on the disc when you buy it. It's not DLC, it's ripping off the consumer by having them pay twice for the content on the disc. It's like going into a shop and buying a locked chest of toys but finding out that you have to pay extra for the key - It only makes sense for the seller. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) On 3/17/2012 at 1:47 AM, Faiblesse Des Sens said: On 3/16/2012 at 11:59 PM, excel_excel said: Well I'd argue your not getting really getting the full game when you buy it new. The full game would contain all of the characters available. as well as....I mean its just so excessive. You don't have a problem with $46 worth of DLC? DLC that is already on the disc and already produced? it doesn't bother you? I'm not buying the game because of all this. maybe $20 for everything put together but all that stuff separately is a rip off. You should go back and read through the thread. I'll summarize -The game already has a massive amount of content not including the DLC -The DLC was created by a different team altogether -There is no confirmation as to whether or not the DLC is even balanced or ready for the game though apparently the characters are usable I've read through the thread already. It is ready for the game, the characters are useable, they have all the voice acting recorded for them all ready, all the animations are there, its all ready to go. Yes, I'm well aware that the game has a lot of content, so what? It doesn't matter whether it had five fighters or fifty, its still incredibly greedy and is a practice that shouldn't be rewarded. So your totally okay will all this stuff being locked on the disc then? What about if there was more than 12 then? Cause that is exactly where things are are headed. as for a different team making all this stuff, I don't see any evidence to suggest that's the case, its really easy to say 'oh the vita team made those' if that was the case they wouldn't be on the disc, in such a complete form. And the costumes on the disc are a typical Capcom standard, so that definitely wouldn't be created by another team. Edited March 17, 2012 by excel_excel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I don't see how it's "greedy" to make more content than a game like this would normally have, and then want to charge extra for that content. The costumes seems a little extreme, I agree, but just don't buy them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 It's not greedy, they just can't realistically charge $106 for the game. They are essentially forced into the $60 pricing structure much like anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Xbox hackers have unlocked the content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 "12 additional fighters" I had no idea that many were locked. That is[/b] excessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 On 3/17/2012 at 11:46 PM, Faiblesse Des Sens said: It's not greedy, they just can't realistically charge $106 for the game. They are essentially forced into the $60 pricing structure much like anyone else. That makes it okay to have all the content on the disc ready and done? So, if the next Street Fighter has half the roster locked on the disc, it'll be fine as long as they charge us $60, and then we pay the rest to unlock all the content on the disc then? On 3/17/2012 at 3:30 PM, TheMightyEthan said: I don't see how it's "greedy" to make more content than a game like this would normally have, and then want to charge extra for that content. The costumes seems a little extreme, I agree, but just don't buy them. Okay, not greedy, rather extremely opportunistic for a company. This isn't a new practice by Capcom but its getting worse. Marvel VS Capcom 3, which Capcom had the cheek to actually bring out the Ultimate Edition and STILL keep Jill and Shuma-Gorath as DLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) On 3/19/2012 at 7:27 PM, excel_excel said: On 3/17/2012 at 11:46 PM, Faiblesse Des Sens said: It's not greedy, they just can't realistically charge $106 for the game. They are essentially forced into the $60 pricing structure much like anyone else. That makes it okay to have all the content on the disc ready and done? So, if the next Street Fighter has half the roster locked on the disc, it'll be fine as long as they charge us $60, and then we pay the rest to unlock all the content on the disc then? Why does it matter if it's on the disc rather than a separate download (all other things being equal)? On 3/19/2012 at 7:27 PM, excel_excel said: Marvel VS Capcom 3, which Capcom had the cheek to actually bring out the Ultimate Edition and STILL keep Jill and Shuma-Gorath as DLC. Okay, yeah, that's pretty bad. The whole point of an "Ultimate" edition is to get all the content, DLC or otherwise. *Edit* - As for the hackers, I agree (with Capcom) it's stupid to go online with a hacked game like that. However, as far as whether it's okay to hack it I have to kinda give it a "meh". I'm inclined to say that whatever's on the disc is fair game for the user to get at it if they're able, even though that's kind of at odds with my position that it doesn't really matter whether the content is on disc or true DLC. I guess what I'll say is I don't really thing there's anything wrong with Capcom putting the DLC on-disc (provided, as here, there's a full game's worth of content there and unlocked already), but I also don't really think there's anything wrong with cracking it to unlock the content. Edited March 19, 2012 by TheMightyEthan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 So there's a good question. Is it truly pirating if you're only unlocking content that's on the disc? I know the DMCA would say it's wrong to bypass DRM measures but it's DRM on a disc you bought. Just wondering. In my book, I'd almost say go for it. If it's on the disc you bought it's yours. I hate the idea of companies trying to retain ownership of something they've sold me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'd say that's where we start to get into licensing issues. As in, you're not so much paying for the disc as you are access to the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) On 3/19/2012 at 7:44 PM, TheMightyEthan said: On 3/19/2012 at 7:27 PM, excel_excel said: On 3/17/2012 at 11:46 PM, Faiblesse Des Sens said: It's not greedy, they just can't realistically charge $106 for the game. They are essentially forced into the $60 pricing structure much like anyone else. That makes it okay to have all the content on the disc ready and done? So, if the next Street Fighter has half the roster locked on the disc, it'll be fine as long as they charge us $60, and then we pay the rest to unlock all the content on the disc then? Why does it matter if it's on the disc rather than a separate download (all other things being equal)? Well I suppose its a total admission from the developer and publisher 'this content is done but we are holding it back to charge you'. Lets face it, that is exactly what's happening here. The way the characters slot perfectly into the game, along with voice clips with other regular characters, its clear all along they were designed to be part of the whole game. As for whether it would be acceptable as a separate download or not, yes, maybe there is an arguement that psychologically, it would have been easier to accept. Maybe, but Mass Effect 3's day 1 DLC squad mate I find completely unacceptable as well. Edited March 19, 2012 by excel_excel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Like I said, what about the content that's already unlocked? It still makes up the cost of a $60 game. They just can't charge more than $60 for it. Try to think of this from Capcom's view: You're spending all of this money on this game, releasing a version for a handheld that's barely selling, and you're releasing it on everything else. Obviously, a lot of money went into this, and they need to get it back. They don't think the Vita version is going to sell that well, let alone sell DLC, so all of that content is playable. They think the console versions will do better, so they have a better chance to make up for the poor Vita sales by selling the content that team created on consoles as DLC. Of course, video game companies aren't the least bit transparent so who knows exactly what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangelove Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Im never going to understand some people. We all know a physical item and a digital item arent the same thing. Would it be different if the game was on XBL and PSN for 60 and it DIDNT have the dlc in your download? Its technically the same thing. The dlc is made. Its done. Whether you have it on the disc or not doesnt matter at all. Youre preferring they lie to you by omitting the dlc from the disc. Thats the only difference that people really want. Maybe im a biased asshole who has no appreciation for money or maybe I like getting raped of my money, but a game with almost 60 characters(PS3) and 3 costumes for each is worth more than 60 dollars easily. What i got available to me(43 deep fully fledged characters that are half new and half SF4 characters that have been severely tweaked and have had major additions, shitloads of modes, amazing replay value, and just an all around well made game, is worth 60 dollars. Its a quality product all around. Well, except for the online. Capcom knows no one would buy an 80 or 90 dollar game. Its not gonna happen, but they also know that fans of theirs are going to expect and probably demand dlc additions. Costumes and characters sell. They HAVE to make them. So they thought ahead and covered their bases. Its a business, not a charity. It just feels that a lot of people are just delusional and want to be lied to. Thats NOT ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't want to be lied to. I just don't want to buy something and get half of what I paid for. Sure, you can make the argument that what you get for your $60 is good value but how do you evaluate that? Over here the average console game is about €50 but a 12" pizza can run up to €25 and it's a one-time only thing. Is the pizza worth half the cost of the game? Is it worth more than that new album or bluray you bought? Should games really be €200 then? Once you get into questioning whether a game is worth more than it's pricetag, it starts to get really murky. Who decides that? I'm against Day 1 DLC, be it on the disc or not because it just screams of cash-grab and the consumer can never be sure if they are really getting what they paid for or if someone, somewhere down the line said "Get rid of this, this and this...then sell them on release day.". Honestly, I'd be happier with a lie and a delayed DLC release schedule than the audacious nature in which many in the industry ask for cash. At least then, I can fool myself into thinking it was an afterthought and I'm not thinking "Those fuckers ripped me off!" or "I don't have the full-game" or "Should I buy the DLC or not?" when I'm playing the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 "What you paid for" is up to the publisher and dev, not you. The VALUE of that item however, is determined by you. Also, Capcom told everyone what was going to be on each version. They didn't lie about anything. The game value thing really is a big convo in itself. I do believe it's been covered here before. Many of us do consider games to be fucking great values at $60 for the number of entertainment hours you get out of them vs other media. Anyways, I think what would help you with DLC is transparency. Some studios have flat out said that a different team worked on DLC while another team was wrapping up a game to get it to gold, and others have stated they worked on it after the game went gold. If only every company was the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I doubt this game is worth $60 in production costs As far as I'm aware it's using the Street Fighter IV engine, meaning 80% of the production is already done, leaving just minor tweaks and asset creation. SFxT won't have been an expensive game to make. It is pretty much out of the aim of making loadsamoney that they spin off the content into DLC. If it's on the disc it's part of the game and was part of the game development. Totally fair game for folks to put all the content back into their purchased product. I dunno, if folks are fine to be nickle n dimed and perfectly find to stick a EULA up their butt n love it then that's their thing. I won't stop you, your money. I've got a decent enough backlog before I have to face the future of games. "But Ultimate Street Fighter x Tekken V Turbo totally comes with 20 characters and that's well worth the $100 price. It's not like they can charge for a $250 game" p.s: With regards to the whole "we hired in another team to work on DLC" Do people actually believe that? DLC is a money making business, when you've got a perfectly capable asset creation team already in place why would you create a second one? Hire more folks for the main team, but it's wasteful to have two separate teams doing the exact same tasks, and thus your'e squandering the potential profits of your DLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excel_excel Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 On 3/19/2012 at 10:17 PM, Strangelove said: Im never going to understand some people. We all know a physical item and a digital item arent the same thing. Would it be different if the game was on XBL and PSN for 60 and it DIDNT have the dlc in your download? Its technically the same thing. The dlc is made. Its done. Whether you have it on the disc or not doesnt matter at all. Youre preferring they lie to you by omitting the dlc from the disc. Thats the only difference that people really want. Maybe im a biased asshole who has no appreciation for money or maybe I like getting raped of my money, but a game with almost 60 characters(PS3) and 3 costumes for each is worth more than 60 dollars easily. What i got available to me(43 deep fully fledged characters that are half new and half SF4 characters that have been severely tweaked and have had major additions, shitloads of modes, amazing replay value, and just an all around well made game, is worth 60 dollars. Its a quality product all around. Well, except for the online. Capcom knows no one would buy an 80 or 90 dollar game. Its not gonna happen, but they also know that fans of theirs are going to expect and probably demand dlc additions. Costumes and characters sell. They HAVE to make them. So they thought ahead and covered their bases. Its a business, not a charity. It just feels that a lot of people are just delusional and want to be lied to. Thats NOT ok. Nobody wants to be lied to, that's ridiculous. The Mass Effect 3 day 1 squad mate DLC was off the disc, but was still crappy how things were handled. Capcom make that stuff during development, 2 loads of on disc costumes to be charged for, when Dead or Alive and Soul Calibur, far less popular fighting games, actually offer alternate costumes as normal on disc content. As for it being worth $60 to you, that's fine, I just don't like this massive amount of content being locked on the disc, costumes, colours and characters, I feel there has to be some sort of line drawn, just costumes or just characters maybe, not all together locked and charging $46 for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 On 3/19/2012 at 11:08 PM, Deanb said: I doubt this game is worth $60 in production costs As far as I'm aware it's using the Street Fighter IV engine, meaning 80% of the production is already done, leaving just minor tweaks and asset creation. SFxT won't have been an expensive game to make. It is pretty much out of the aim of making loadsamoney that they spin off the content into DLC. If it's on the disc it's part of the game and was part of the game development. Totally fair game for folks to put all the content back into their purchased product. I dunno, if folks are fine to be nickle n dimed and perfectly find to stick a EULA up their butt n love it then that's their thing. I won't stop you, your money. I've got a decent enough backlog before I have to face the future of games. "But Ultimate Street Fighter x Tekken V Turbo totally comes with 20 characters and that's well worth the $100 price. It's not like they can charge for a $250 game" p.s: With regards to the whole "we hired in another team to work on DLC" Do people actually believe that? DLC is a money making business, when you've got a perfectly capable asset creation team already in place why would you create a second one? Hire more folks for the main team, but it's wasteful to have two separate teams doing the exact same tasks, and thus your'e squandering the potential profits of your DLC. Video games are a money making business. Also, the second team was working on the Vita version, I mentioned that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangelove Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Its really up to each individual person to gauge what is worth what to them. I dont see a problem with it. I personally think Mincraft isnt worth more than 2 or 3 bucks, but thats just me. Id rather buy a shitty FF13-2 costume than buy Minecraft. Id appreciate it more. Thats my choice and my opinion. Then again, I consider all dlc preplanned. Maybe back in the day of pcs only getting dlc, publishers sat around and waited a year and released dlc because people wanted it and they wanted to extend the life of their games, but I feel that today all dlc is preplanned. It doesnt matter what stage its at, whether its on disc, first day, first month, 10 months, from companies like Bethesda, Epic, and Bioware, youre NEVER getting everything. If you want the complete experience, youll have to buy dlc that you already know is on the way or wait for the GOTY version. Its up to you when and if and for what price you buy it. Like I said, SFxT is worth 60 bucks to me as is. Whether the engine is built or not, its a good game and most of it is new to me. I feel that the work they did and what i get to experience of it is worth the money I paid. Im no expert on fighting games and I dont know if anyone here is, but the game is a different beast almost entirely. In the end, I dont need to convince anyone of anything and myself esteem is intact. If you try hard enough, you can convince yourself of whatever crazy delusion you want. Its up to you and it doesnt affect me. I honestly think id feel worst about buying 300 games on Steam and only playing 15 of them. It doesnt matter if you paid 1 dollar a game or whatever, its a giant waste to me. Same thing as people who go to Starbucks every day. A total waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I think in a well-established genre like this it's easy to come up with a fairly "objective" measure of the game's value: compare it to the content of other games. How many characters does a game typically have vs how many this one has? Ask, "if this locked content didn't exist at all, and all that there was was the unlocked content, would it be worth it to me?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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