Moral Choices In Games

[Hot Heart]

I figured I would write a piece on 'moral choices' or Karma Meters in games; so I'm going to see what you guys have to say about them as well.

 

We can chat about whatever comes to mind, obviously, but I'll put some suggestions to get things going (some are probably pretty obvious):

- First game you ever played that featured what you would call a 'moral choice system' - did you like it/think it worked?

- Do you like/dislike any particular games with karma meters?

- Do you like/dislike any particular instance of a moral choice?

- Is it something you think certain games could/should start incorporating? If so, which?

- How would you improve upon the typical karma meter system?

 

I will join in later but for now I will just say that the system in Mass Effect, while far from perfect, was a step in the right direction; in that it was not necessarily good/bad choices you were making.

 

I think The Witcher does some interesting things with its choices too.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Hot Heart

[Mercurial]

I don't think much about since I am generally chaotic neutral or just evil for the sake of evil.

[SomTervo]

I think moral choices are good when they are exactly that, and have an influence on the story, with maybe a secondary influence on the active gameplay.

 

I think games that have a central mechanic built around moral choice are flawed and gimmicky.

 

More clearly: I think moral choices primarily as a game mechanic are awful, whereas moral choices primarily as a story driving/developing mechanic is great.

 

Mass Effect is pretty perfect as far as I'm concerned (though I could do without having a 'renegade' and 'paragon' meter. Even if they just made the meter invisible I think it'd be more interesting.) The choices you make aren't always arbitrarily one way or the other, they influence the story directly, and they can influence your gameplay experience in a subtle way.

 

inFamous, while I love it, is an example of what I think is really rubbish moral choices. Moral choices as a game mechanic. It feels like a gimmick, it's rarely interesting, it's always one extreme or the other (where ME often has middle of the road options), and while it affects the story in a superficial way, it doesn't affect the ultimate outcome or significant events. Bad, bad, bad. Also the powers are imbalanced on either side. It's difficult in a more cheap and frustrating way if you go good. I'm doing an evil playthrough atm and it's piss-easy in comparison.

 

In fact, I generally hate it when games force you down one path or the other, or give you X vs. Y options. Spider-Man 3 was bad (not just in the general way that it was, but) because you had a gimmicky and pointless Red suit/ Black suit thing going on. The Black suit was just better. There was no need to put the Red suit on. But it made you evil or something. Stupid.

Edited March 6, 2011 by kenshi_ryden

[Hot Heart]

Mass Effect is pretty perfect as far as I'm concerned (though I could do without having a 'renegade' and 'paragon' meter. Even if they just made the meter invisible I think it'd be more interesting.) The choices you make aren't always arbitrarily one way or the other, they influence the story directly, and they can influence your gameplay experience in a subtle way.

 

I think it's perfectly fine, but I always tend to overthink things and it just seems odd that there's always an exact moment where you can be good or evil. And a lot of people tend to dislike the fact that there's no advantage to being a 'shades of grey' character; not that ME is the series they refer to (because that has a more defined character and purpose).

 

Red Dead Redemption seems to get the most hate when it comes to its 'reputation' meter or whatever. Such a foolish addition.

[Johnny]

'Planescape: Torment' and 'Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines' are obligatory experiences for anyone interested in the topic.

They just do it all too well.

 

I feel moral choices are best when the game doesn't try to make a huge deal of them. Moral choices in real life doesn't come with five miles of foreshadowing, nor do they have clearly defined outcomes most of the time.

 

As for if they are good or bad - what a question! The answer is of course that they are good in the kind of game where they fit.

Moral choices wouldn't have improved Bulletstorm in any significant way, but removing them from Vampire would have left the game incredibly hollow.

[SomTervo]

I think it's perfectly fine, but I always tend to overthink things and it just seems odd that there's always an exact moment where you can be good or evil. And a lot of people tend to dislike the fact that there's no advantage to being a 'shades of grey' character; not that ME is the series they refer to (because that has a more defined character and purpose).

 

Red Dead Redemption seems to get the most hate when it comes to its 'reputation' meter or whatever. Such a foolish addition.

 

Hmmm, yeah 'pretty perfect' is probably a bit of exaggeration on how I feel about it, though I do think it's the best I've experienced. The whole black/white nature of moral choices is quite a pain, I feel perhaps Heavy Rain captured that the best? You can do the right thing, but it may be the wrong thing in a different way, and vice versa. Where as, indeed, the design of ME forces people to play one way or the other 'renegade playthroughs' or 'paragon playthroughs' etc.

 

Haha, I wouldn't even count the RDR system as moral choices. I didn't even think about it for my entire playtime. Though I imagine it'd be quite fun to try and get my 100% good reputation down to a 100% bad one... Anyone got RDR on 360 for some badness?

 

 

I feel moral choices are best when the game doesn't try to make a huge deal of them. Moral choices in real life doesn't come with five miles of foreshadowing, nor do they have clearly defined outcomes most of the time.

 

As for if they are good or bad - what a question! The answer is of course that they are good in the kind of game where they fit.

Moral choices wouldn't have improved Bulletstorm in any significant way, but removing them from Vampire would have left the game incredibly hollow.

 

Excellent call on all fronts.

[Hot Heart]

Some good stuff so far.

 

I think some of Heavy Rain was pretty good and while it's not exactly a karma meter, it has some good examples of how to include narrative choices in games.

 

I know I backed down from a couple (OK, I failed one) of Ethan's challenges...although that's because I knew Jayden would figure it out in time (turns out 'my' Jayden and Madison had it figured out )

 

Edited March 6, 2011 by Hot Heart

[Gigawings]

- First game you ever played that featured what you would call a 'moral choice system' - did you like it/think it worked?

 

A japanese love sim game, don't go too far though, don't understand the language.

 

 

- Do you like/dislike any particular games with karma meters?

 

Depend on how developers implemented it.

 

 

- Do you like/dislike any particular instance of a moral choice?

 

Read above answer.

 

 

- Is it something you think certain games could start incorporating? If so, which?

 

A story heavy games, with multiple endings

 

 

- How would you improve upon the typical karma meter system?

 

Add gray areas in it, and make some decision with the same results even though the choices are completely different.

[Hot Heart]

Wasn't necessarily a questionnaire, Gigawings, but thank you.

[Pirandello]

First game you ever played that featured what you would call a 'moral choice system' - did you like it/think it worked?

As far as I can remember... probably Neverwinter Nights 2. It worked well enough for what it did. It's DnD, so it's pretty cookie-cutter.

 

Do you like/dislike any particular games with karma meters?

None that I can think of, really.

 

Do you like/dislike any particular instance of a moral choice?

The one where you have it pretty cut out to you in black/white (he dies/she dies, pick which one you want to save) and you aren't allowed to pull the impossible and save the shit out of everyone's ass.

 

Is it something you think certain games could start incorporating? If so, which?

I want to have more than just two choices or two outcomes to everything I do. It certainly will makes the game more complicated, but I'm used to my moral-goody-two-shoes being able to do just about everything that is considered impossible, which to him, is just "improbable".

 

How would you improve upon the typical karma meter system?

Karma is karma. What changes are needed for it? Other than that, the game could always go Witcher-style and make the choices morally ambiguous.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Pirandello

[SomTervo]

Some good stuff so far.

 

I think some of Heavy Rain was pretty good and while it's not exactly a karma meter, it has some good examples of how to include narrative choices in games.

 

I know I backed down from a couple (OK, I failed one) of Ethan's challenges...although that's because I knew Jayden would figure it out in time (turns out 'my' Jayden and Madison had it figured out )

 

 

Ooh,

which one did you fail? I backed down from killing the guy in the apartment. He said he had kids, and I'm pretty sure he had a kids bedroom in there, so I decided not to. Taking away someone else's Dad wasn't going to save my kid, the way I looked at it. The only one I didn't do. Because of that I sent Ethan to the wrong address for Shaun. Christ, that was horrific. When he's like "It's a... Restaurant." and falls to his knees crying. Shit. It was really touch and go later, I nearly lost Jayden in the last fight, but I managed with everyone alive, woo!

 

[Johnny]

First game you ever played that featured what you would call a 'moral choice system' - did you like it/think it worked?

Oh god, so far back... I couldn't tell you which one, but it had to be one of the 90s PC wRPGs.

 

 

Do you like/dislike any particular instance of a moral choice?

I'd like to take this opportunity to once again point to Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. So many choices of moral ambiguity, and most of them feel perfectly plausible within the context of that universe.

 

 

Is it something you think certain games could start incorporating? If so, which?

It could work in any game with branching storylines.

 

 

How would you improve upon the typical karma meter system?

The Karma meter is bullshit. It completely undermines the whole point of a complex moral dilemma by telling the player which choice counts as the universally right one.

Obsidian had the right idea with New Vegas when they toned the karma into the background and make which factions you were pissing off more important. I just wish they would have gone all the way and removed the karma entirely.

[Hot Heart]

Ooh,

which one did you fail? I backed down from killing the guy in the apartment. He said he had kids, and I'm pretty sure he had a kids bedroom in there, so I decided not to. Taking away someone else's Dad wasn't going to save my kid, the way I looked at it. The only one I didn't do. Because of that I sent Ethan to the wrong address for Shaun. Christ, that was horrific. When he's like "It's a... Restaurant." and falls to his knees crying. Shit. It was really touch and go later, I nearly lost Jayden in the last fight, but I managed with everyone alive, woo!

 

 

Oh, you've reminded me actually. Got that a bit wrong.

 

I completed the first one in the car and I chopped off a finger...with a kitchen knife, I think (don't think I found the alcohol to calm his nerves like my friend did though). I failed the powerplant one through sheer cackhanded fumbling (which I was worried would kill me, but he just backed out) while I refused to kill the guy or drink the poison. Jayden figured out the killer and so once I'd got Madison Indiana-Jonesed out of the killer's exploding apartment, I got her to call Ethan and tell him where to go. I think maybe I got the bestest possible ending that ever was? (maybe it could've done without getting Lauren romantically involved with Sheldon...)

 

Edited March 6, 2011 by Hot Heart

[CorgiShinobi]

This topic needs a little something extra...

 

...like this!

[SomTervo]

Oh, you've reminded me actually. Got that a bit wrong.

 

I completed the first one in the car and I chopped off a finger...with a kitchen knife, I think (don't think I found the alcohol to calm his nerves like my friend did though). I failed the powerplant one through sheer cackhanded fumbling (which I was worried would kill me, but he just backed out) while I refused to kill the guy or drink the poison. Jayden figured out the killer and so once I'd got Madison Indiana-Jonesed out of the killer's exploding apartment, I got her to call Ethan and tell him where to go. I think maybe I got the bestest possible ending that ever was? (maybe it could've done without getting Lauren romantically involved with Sheldon...)

 

 

Nice- I had pretty much exactly the same thing, though the only thing I didn't do was

kill the guy, obviously. I had Jayden and Madison both work out who the killer was, and Madison told Ethan where to go.

 

I got the best endings save one- the one where Jayden has spent too much time in VR and the little tanks come driving over his desk when his glasses are off. Did you get that? I've no idea how you're supposed to complete the game without using ARI that much.

 

Also, there's an ending where Shaun dies, but Madison and Ethan still get to gether. The final scene is the two of them standing at Shaun's grave, and Madison says to Ethan that she's going to go get the car (or something like that.) She leaves, and Ethan stands there, begins crying, takes a gun out, and shoots himself in the head. I know people who thought they did really well and then that happened... Horrific. I don't think you can get Lauren and Sheldon together properly.

 

 

The Karma meter is bullshit. It completely undermines the whole point of a complex moral dilemma by telling the player which choice counts as the universally right one.

 

Goddamn straight you beautiful, beautiful man.

Edited March 7, 2011 by kenshi_ryden

[Thursday Next]

First game I played with a "moral choice" was... LoK Soul Reaver. If you drained the locals dry they would fear you and the guards would attack you. If you only "sipped" a little at their souls, they would praise you for dealing with the vampire menace.

 

A great "moral" system imho, there were no guages or meters, if you started acting like a monster people would react to you like one, if you stopped and acted more like a hero, people reacted to that too.

 

There was no punishment, no points, no upgrades attached to whether I rampaged through Nosgoth draining the souls of its residents or skipped lightly amongst them, kissing babies and picking flowers. Just, the people there either liked you or didn't.

 

There seems to be a belief amongst developers that unless you attach a carrot and stick... or carrot and evil carrot to a choice, that it has no emotional value. Once, when I played through Soul Reaver, I hadn't been harming the humans, and as such, they were all pretty cool with me, but I was suuuuuper low on health and was in a dark alley when this chick strolls by, all on her own... well, I drained every last drop of her soul and left her for dead. It didn't upset my karma, the one offence went fairly unnoticed, but I felt really bad about doing it. On the other hand, I've done playthroughs where I was the scourge of Nosgoth where I drained every citizen, even if I was on full health and treated the humans like cattle. Every now and then, I would let one go, not sure why, perhaps to tell the others, perhaps to make myself feel like less of a monster.

 

I think that's how morality should be handled in games, not through some sort of good/evil swing-o-meter and rewards for being ultra good or ultra bad. All your powers should give you the potential to do either good or evil, you should be left to choose how you use them and the world should react to you accordingly.

 

The challenge then is to make you care about what a bunch of fictional people think about your videogame alter-ego.

[deanb]

I'm gonna throw my thoughts in then read n respond to others.

 

My first game with a morality meter was probably Mass Effect. I think. There may of been something with a more hidden off moral meter that I can't remember at this moment in time.

 

As for likes n dislikes, I'm pretty vocal on my dislike of the Mass Effect style "save the kitten" vs "burn down the orphanage" style. Even worse when it's Up for Good Down for Bad. It's so simple. It's just a "pick which stat you want to charge up" mechanic than actually getting you to think on your choices and potential consequences. Before ME2 launch my housemate managed to complete ME1 in about 8hrs or so, with a fair chunk of time saving in skipping through convos then pushing up when the wheel popped up.

I liked DA:O's style, it was along the right tracks. It's style and timing suggests that Bioware had eyed up another game I'm fond of, which would be Witcher. Witcher had none of this up=good, down=bad choices. And very rarely any kind of obvious good or bad answers. Many shades of grey. And sometimes the choices with consequences weren't necessarily moral choices*. Just questioning a dwarf about the scoia'tael will piss him off and he won't trade with you. Actually wait no. One won't talk to you. If you kill a particular elf or piss it off, then a different dwarf won't trade with you. It's a game that makes you pay attention to what you're talking about, what convo options you're picking. (whereas Mass Effect/DA2 you push up or down and the result is the same)

Infamous had a painfully black n white system. But what I did like about it was that it changed the game. Depending on the path you pick depends upon which powers you got and could change your play style quite a bit. (good was more defensive, evil was offensive). So in a story sense it was pretty bad, as a gameplay mechanic it was pretty enjoyable and gave you at least two playthroughs out of the game.

Oh yeah Postal 2 was pretty fun with it's stuff. It was more making a point than anything I guess, but it was designed so you could go through the game like a regular guy, buy your milk, take books to the library, cash cheques etc. But you can do them the slow n dull way, or pull out a gun n shoot the place up. Or piss on it. upto you. The game doesn't force you too much one way or another. (It's not totally balanced, so does push you a bit to the shooting part)

 

Not that I can remember off the top of my head. Loosing access to the dwarf blacksmith was pretty annoying, but it was my own fault and I did kinda like I was punished for been a lazy gamer at the time.

 

I think FPS games could work with it. But they'd need a bit of a revamp first. GTA or similar would be an obvious one. LA Noire I could see fitting a morality meter or sorts, depending on how you go about your ways. right n proper, or corrupt, maybe a little over the line in getting evidence and confessions etc.

 

I'd improve it by getting rid of it. Don't have some stat on the menu with a bar going up or down. I'd go with the Witcher shades of grey style. No more black n white choices. DA:O was going so well and then..DA2 happened. *I also think maybe the prefix of 'moral' should be taken off, and just be games with 'choices'. Maybe a suffix of 'and consequences'. That's all it should be. How many times in a day do you have to make "moral choices" compared to just regular choices like if you're gonna write that essay today, with the consequences of completing it peace of mind n good grade, or staying up all night n probably missing hand-in. Do you go to the shop and at the till have to decide everytime if you're going to buy the milk, or stick a gun in the guys face n rob the store? It's not very natural. And if you have these stark black n white options then it creates an inconsistency if you go with the good ones most of the game, then suddenly go for a streak of evil choices.

 

I think that final paragraph would be my main point. Shades of grey, less "moral choices", more cause n effect.

 

@Kenshi: Ah I'm not the only one in camp "hide the meter". Also I found Evil to be pretty sucky cos the good side had the ability to let attacks charge up your power through the shield. I've yet to get to the final boss fight, but it'll be a bitch without being able to stand n shield against his attacks to charge up.

 

@Hot heart: See RDR felt like it was tacked on. It meant nothing, and it totally clashed with the story "I'm a reformed man" "I don't do that kind of thing no more" as you're dragging a hooker behind your horse on a rope.

 

@Johhny: I have heard good things on Vampire The Masquerade. Supposedly has one of the better VG stories out there (though with dipping a bit at the end) I may look into it over summer. (GOG have one up btw http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/vampire_the_masquerade_redemption )

 

@Pirandello(sort of) NWN had a moral choice thing? I can't remember as such. But if so that's the first game I've played with a moral meter then. Didn't get too far or remember much of it though.

 

@Thursday: Pretty spot on.

[Hot Heart]

Witcher had none of this up=good, down=bad choices. And very rarely any kind of obvious good or bad answers. Many shades of grey. And sometimes the choices with consequences weren't necessarily moral choices*. Just questioning a dwarf about the scoia'tael will piss him off and he won't trade with you. Actually wait no. One won't talk to you. If you kill a particular elf or piss it off, then a different dwarf won't trade with you. It's a game that makes you pay attention to what you're talking about, what convo options you're picking.

 

I'll redraft this for PXoD closer to The Witcher's release, OK?! Stop bugging me.

[Johnny]

@Johhny: I have heard good things on Vampire The Masquerade. Supposedly has one of the better VG stories out there (though with dipping a bit at the end) I may look into it over summer. (GOG have one up btw http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/vampire_the_masquerade_redemption )

Stay away from Redemption. Anything you've heard about Vampire is about Bloodlines. Redemption is completely different.

 

Additionally, regarding Mass Effect, I find that a key part of enjoying the moral choices in there was to completely disregard wether it was a renegade/paragon choice and just go with your guts.

[excel_excel]

Theres nothing wrong with having black and white choices just the same as there is nothing wrong with having shades of gray choices.

I disagree as well Dean, Mass Effect didn't always have clear cut choices like that.

 

choosing to save the council or not, choosing whether to fight Saren or convince him to kill himself, choosing whether or not to save the collectors base in ME2

 

I do agree with getting rid of meters related to these desicions though. Dragon Age was very good in this regard because it was purely based on your desicion, there was no affect on your stats or being 'good' or 'bad'. I haven't got far enough in The Witcher to really see the proper moral choices yet

Edited March 7, 2011 by excel_excel

[deanb]

 

I can't much remember on Saren, though I do know I convinced him to shoot himself.

As for the other two. They're pretty black n white as far as the way Bioware have painted it. The council choice was quite obviously painted as saving the humans being the selfish act. Saving the council was for the greater good. And it pans out as such in ME2. It's why my housemate replayed the game before ME2 cos he started playing on a default save(new xbox, no oldsaves) and the council was dead, thus everyone on citadel treats you like an asshole. Which he obviously wasn't keen on since that wasn't the choice he made.

Saving the collectors base was clearly the bad option. Both from what you know of the base and illusive man, and they way your party reacts to your decision. (I've got saves just before so while I saved the collectors base, should it go tits up like the council choice I can go back n finish the last 20 minutes again)

 

 

Bioware just sucks at subtlety. And their convo system pretty much means they can't do the moral grey choices since it's always up for paragon, down for renegade. It's why I liked DA:O's system, it was just numbered options, 1-5(or whatever) with no weighting on any of the choices. Some could piss folks off, some get you gold, some continue the convo. You have to pay attention to what you're clicking on.

Step one for Bioware is to just throw this shit:

 

 

 

out the window.

It's far to restricting a system for players and the writers.

[excel_excel]

 

I can't much remember on Saren, though I do know I convinced him to shoot himself.

As for the other two. They're pretty black n white as far as the way Bioware have painted it. The council choice was quite obviously painted as saving the humans being the selfish act. Saving the council was for the greater good. And it pans out as such in ME2. It's why my housemate replayed the game before ME2 cos he started playing on a default save(new xbox, no oldsaves) and the council was dead, thus everyone on citadel treats you like an asshole. Which he obviously wasn't keen on since that wasn't the choice he made.

Saving the collectors base was clearly the bad option. Both from what you know of the base and illusive man, and they way your party reacts to your decision. (I've got saves just before so while I saved the collectors base, should it go tits up like the council choice I can go back n finish the last 20 minutes again)

 

 

Bioware just sucks at subtlety. And their convo system pretty much means they can't do the moral grey choices since it's always up for paragon, down for renegade. It's why I liked DA:O's system, it was just numbered options, 1-5(or whatever) with no weighting on any of the choices. Some could piss folks off, some get you gold, some continue the convo. You have to pay attention to what you're clicking on.

Step one for Bioware is to just throw this shit:

 

 

 

out the window.

It's far to restricting a system for players and the writers.

 

 

I disagree about the collectors base. I didn't blow it up, I was thinking that the base could be used to battle the reapers and be used for good

 

 

That said, the bioware system is restricting. I thought that was mostly because they have voice actors, and can't record so many lines?

[Hot Heart]

Step one for Bioware is to just throw this shit out the window.

 

Yeah, I think that does make things a little obvious. But I think it would be interesting if even though the choices were obvious, the consequences were not always so clear.

 

I disagree about the collectors base. I didn't blow it up, I was thinking that the base could be used to battle the reapers and be used for good

 

 

That said, the bioware system is restricting. I thought that was mostly because they have voice actors, and can't record so many lines?

 

 

It might sound wise, but I get the feeling it always tends to backfire. Reaper tech seems notorious for indoctrinating users. Not that that's gonna happen (I'd like to see some interesting variations if you do keep it).

 

 

I think the voice-acting thing is a good point, but I've said before that ME is designed in a specific way (Zeschuk and Muzyka said it is deliberately that way, compared to DA:O where you are making the character's 'origins'). It's a 'space opera' and Shepard is the Big Damn Hero. Rarely would you seem him actually make a mistake in judgement; his choices usually pan out well enough for him in the end (except if you die in ME2...).

Edited March 7, 2011 by Hot Heart

[deanb]

 

I disagree about the collectors base. I didn't blow it up, I was thinking that the base could be used to battle the reapers and be used for good

 

 

That said, the bioware system is restricting. I thought that was mostly because they have voice actors, and can't record so many lines?

 

Excel if it was any other game from any other developer I'd agree with you. But their MO is pretty much cliche at this point. Coming to the end of the second Mass Effect you know which is the good choice n which is bad.

The fact you get told off right away makes it pretty obvious that it won't pan out so well.

 

As for VA stuff, that can be done without the wheel system. Same amount of dialogue just don't tie it to a rigid system the wheel provides. It's a prison of game design.

Anyway as DA:O to DA2 showed, the wheel doesn't necessarily increase VA requirements since DA2 is nearly cut in half, and that's with a talking PC.

[Johnny]

Excel if it was any other game from any other developer I'd agree with you. But their MO is pretty much cliche at this point. Coming to the end of the second Mass Effect you know which is the good choice n which is bad.

The fact you get told off right away makes it pretty obvious that it won't pan out so well.

What are you basing this off exactly? It wouldn't be the first time your companions in a BioWare game have been wrong on something.