Religion Thread

[Yantelope V2]

He was probably digging for validation of his doubts and doing research on them. I doubt that he left his faith without doing any research beforehand.

[Yantelope V2]

I've never understood the beef other Christians have with Mormons. The stories aren't any more ridiculous than those of any other religion, they're just more recent.

It's like what Jon Stewart said on The Daily Show a few weeks ago; all of Christianity could be the result of a teen pregnancy, and Judaism where a man came down from a mountain with scribbles on some rock. He said something about Buddhism, like "someone who really liked food," but point is religion in of itself takes a "leap of faith" to believe any of it.

 

I'd disagree with Stewart because if the stories were true then Judiasm was the result of many miracles performed before a whole host of people in two nations resulting in the dilverance of a nation and Christianity is the result of a man doing many wonders and miracles witnessed by thousands of people. The problem of faith is one of whether or not we believe the people who witnessed these things and honestly, it's if you'd believe even if you witnessed these things yourself. If the Bible is true even many of the people who saw God's works first hand did not believe in him.

[TheMightyEthan]

Nitpicky, but really it's whether you believe the book that says that thousands of people witnessed this stuff.

 

I'll freely admit though that even if I witnessed a miracle I would more readily believe that I was hallucinating than that it actually happened. Assuming I didn't have any other natural explanation.

[Mal]

I've never understood the beef other Christians have with Mormons. The stories aren't any more ridiculous than those of any other religion, they're just more recent.

Its sort of like this:

The thing about religion, I think, is that folks place put quite a deal of value on how old it is. Then there is the faith portion of it.

[Yantelope V2]

Nitpicky, but really it's whether you believe the book that says that thousands of people witnessed this stuff.

 

Lee Strobel makes a good point in his book, The Case for Christ, that if the books of the Bible had been false then they would not have gained the following or popularity they did immediately following their writing. Nobody would have adopted or believed a book which claimed of thousands of people witnessing events in recent recent history of which there were no actual witnesses. The fact that people latched onto the book while those witnesses were still alive (which is evidenced by the early and fast growth of the christian church) is strong evidence that the book was not as simple as a made up story by a few guys but at least had some sort of historical basis.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Yantelope V2

[Battra92]

I've never understood the beef other Christians have with Mormons. The stories aren't any more ridiculous than those of any other religion, they're just more recent.

 

Part of my issue with Mormonism is that they claim to accept the Gospel as in the Bible but yet supplement it with an additional gospel. Paul was very clear in his Epistle to the Galatians that no other Gospel, even if delivered by an angel or even by himself should be accepted. Mormonism introduces additional gospels that contradict the Bible.

 

Being a Christian requires certain beliefs and center to that is salvation is what came to be known as the Five Solas in the Reformation. Among these that are in direct opposition to Mormonism are: Sola Scriptura: The Bible is the one and only inspired work of God.

Sola Fide: Justification comes via Faith alone. (Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ) No works we can do on Earth can account for our sins.

Sola Gratia: We are saved not by any work or anything on our own part. We are in fact completely unacceptable for salvation but Christ alone (Solus Christus) and no works at all: not tithing, nor baptism, nor good works. Mormons preach a completely different version of salvation that comes about either by default (which plays down the whole requirement of the resurrection.)

 

So there are pretty clear distinctions between Christians and Mormons (and Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists for that matter) yet many Mormons will self identify themselves as Christians or of the Christian faith. This presents what my pastor used to call a "wolf in sheep's clothing" situation. Many Christians worry that their brothers and sisters in Christ may be fooled into thinking that Mormons are no different than Methodists or Presbyterians or Baptists when in fact there are clear cut differences that cause them to fall outside of the umbrella of Christianity.

[CorgiShinobi]

Speaking of those Seventh Day Adventists...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSYL2QNZV5E

 

But on a more serious note, I don't care what others call me. It's clear as day to me and my non-Mormon friends that I'm a Christian, but there's also going to be something that rubs others the wrong way and sadly not everyone is going to call me by such a prestigious moniker.

 

If only there was a way to please everyone... I know, I'll just believe what everyone else believes! Then I can be called all kind of fancy names!

[MasterDex]

Nitpicky, but really it's whether you believe the book that says that thousands of people witnessed this stuff.

 

Lee Strobel makes a good point in his book, The Case for Christ, that if the books of the Bible had been false then they would not have gained the following or popularity they did immediately following their writing. Nobody would have adopted or believed a book which claimed of thousands of people witnessing events in recent recent history of which there were no actual witnesses. The fact that people latched onto the book while those witnesses were still alive (which is evidenced by the early and fast growth of the christian church) is strong evidence that the book was not as simple as a made up story by a few guys but at least had some sort of historical basis.

 

That sounds like the reasoning of someone born in the 19th-21th century. It boils down to "If it was all a lie, the papers would have dropped it like a rock" - the same way they would now if a rumour turned out to be false. That isn't accounting for the old beliefs in magic and superstition however or a plethora of other factors. If we are to believe the magic in the Bible happened because some other stuff in the bible happened, then we have to be open to other magical folklore - like ghosts, dragons, knowledge granting fish, etc. Of course, it all boils down to faith, but having faith and truly believing something happened are two different things entirely. Using the popularity of the bible to argue for the validity of its content is a rather weak argument in my opinion. A more reasonable argument for the quick increase in the bible's popularity - and the popularity of any religion - is that it offers something different from the status quo. For those alive when Jesus became a hot topic, that was Judaism, a stricter faith.Add to that a more ready belief in magic and the supernatural, a geographically-restricted populace that never experienced the true multitude of other world religions and a charismatic leader who was 'of the people' rather than 'of The Church' and I reckon you have a great recipe for fanatical popularity - even in this modern day, I'd argue.

 

And then Rome took over. I don't think I need to explain why Rome had an effect on the popularity of Christianity and the bible, do I?

[Yantelope V2]

I wasn't just talking about the wonders of magic or miracles in the Bible. I was talking about how if there was no real person named Jesus who did some sort of signs and wonders (the ligitimacy you can question) then the book wouldn't have been immediately dismissed as fiction because nobody would have ever seen or heard of this person.

[TheMightyEthan]

Except back then people didn't move around much, so the fact that you and everyone you know has never heard of this guy or these events doesn't really matter if they're taking place more than a few tens of miles away.

[Thursday Next]

I wasn't just talking about the wonders of magic or miracles in the Bible. I was talking about how if there was no real person named Jesus who did some sort of signs and wonders (the ligitimacy you can question) then the book wouldn't have been immediately dismissed as fiction because nobody would have ever seen or heard of this person.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae

 

This book, a "History of the Kings of Britain" was accepted as true until people got smart enough and communicative enough to see that it was just a bunch of stories. It took about 500 years for people to see through it. Not quite up there with the Bible, but a good innings none the less.

 

One day this page will link directly to the Bible under the category of "books that people used to believe were factual but are now classified as fantasy novels."

[deanb]

http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120619/10362/religion-hell-belief-society-crime.htm

 

A belief in hell drives lower crime rates than a belief in heaven.

[Mercurial]

Yes and water is wet Thursday is an anal douche.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Senor Bloodaxe

[Thursday Next]

wet

 

Adjective: Covered or saturated with water or another liquid.

 

A liquid cannot be covered in itself any more than a solid can be full of itself. Therefore water is not always wet.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Thursday Next

[Mal]

Having that sort of effect on people seems almost expected since, in most cases, if there is a belief about heaven then there is one for hell as well. People also looks at the negative more than the positive. Hell, look at how people react to video games to see an example of this. Always got to look out fr number one...

[Mister Jack]

[MasterDex]

Ha! Brilliant!

As an atheist, I'd love to be proven wrong and see Jesus resurrected, if even just to hear the "Oh shit!" that echoes across the world as different Christian faiths realise they weren't very Christian at all.

[Mister Jack]

Regarding the gay thing...I just never seem to grasp why it's such a big deal, and it's not because I'm an atheist. Let's say for the sake of argument that being gay is a sin. Well, you probably sinned about a dozen times before lunch, but you don't see a picket line telling you you're going to hell. For that matter, isn't the requirement for heaven by most christian standards simply accepting Christ as your savior and believing in him? Being gay somehow overrides that? So accepting Jesus will have him forgive you for being a thief or a crook or even a murderer, but if you're gay then there's just no getting past that? How does that make ANY sense even by Christian logic? How can any devout Christian genuinely believe that their god is really that petty?

 

Christianity would be so much more worthwhile to me if there weren't so many people twisting it to make god look like a sadistic asshole. There's a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but a lot of people have forgotten that the right thing, in this case learning to accept gay people, is rarely the same as the easy thing.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

Regarding the gay thing...I just never seem to grasp why it's such a big deal, and it's not because I'm an atheist. Let's say for the sake of argument that being gay is a sin. Well, you probably sinned about a dozen times before lunch, but you don't see a picket line telling you you're going to hell. For that matter, isn't the requirement for heaven by most christian standards simply accepting Christ as your savior and believing in him? Being gay somehow overrides that? So accepting Jesus will have him forgive you for being a thief or a crook or even a murderer, but if you're gay then there's just no getting past that? How does that make ANY sense even by Christian logic? How can any devout Christian genuinely believe that their god is really that petty?

 

Christianity would be so much more worthwhile to me if there weren't so many people twisting it to make god look like a sadistic asshole. There's a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but a lot of people have forgotten that the right thing, in this case learning to accept gay people, is rarely the same as the easy thing.

It's essentially something conservatives pretend to care about to make it seem like they have a legitimate reason to dislike us, when the reality is they just think we're icky.

[TheMightyEthan]

People are assholes, and will continue to be assholes forever, and will always use ideologies to justify it. Regardless of the ideology.

 

I'm no fan of the religious right, but they're far from the only ones who do it.

[Mister Jack]

Naturally, but since this is the religion thread I kept it to that. I would have a much more positive opinion of religion in general if it wasn't for...well, you know. People.

[deanb]

 

Damn Christians, they ruined Christianity.

[Battra92]

As a Christian we do believe that acting on homosexuality is a sin. So is lying, taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.

 

We believe that we are not perfect and are only justified by our faith in God. As a Christian we know that we are sinners and yet still strive to not sin. Just because you feel like stealing, or lusting after a woman who isn't your wife you shouldn't act on it. In the same way, Christians teach that you shouldn't act upon any gay feelings that you may have.

 

Where the issue comes up is that it's the current issue du jour in the media, especially pop culture (which is dominated by gays) and Christians like myself often feel like we're being attacked constantly. I've since given up watching most television (Cook's Country and America's Test Kitchen are the only shows I watch since Good Eats was cancelled) and I hardly ever go to the movies. When Kirk Cameron states his faith that he believes that homosexuality is wrong, he's "hate mongering." Tim Tebow can't actually be motivated by faith, he must be a grandstander. If you tell someone Merry Christmas, you're hateful to Jews and Atheists. Really? When you hear this crap on a daily basis from the god of most people's living rooms whether it be in the form of Ned Flanders, Sheldon's mother etc. it's natural to want to push back.

 

I've met more tolerant Christians and more intolerant atheists than the other way around.

[Mister Jack]

For the sake of full disclosure, I do think the whole militant atheism thing is a really high level of douchebaggery. I'm not out there actively trying to get people to give up their faith. I also really don't give a shit about the whole "Merry Christmas" thing or if some town puts up a nativity scene or whatever. There are bigger problems to worry about.

 

A lot of gay people I've talked to also don't like their media portrayal any more than straight people do. There are exceptions, but most of the time if a gay person is on tv he's either a magical pixie or a complete lunatic. It's practically the new blackface.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Mister Jack

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

As a Christian we do believe that acting on homosexuality is a sin. So is lying, taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.

 

We believe that we are not perfect and are only justified by our faith in God. As a Christian we know that we are sinners and yet still strive to not sin. Just because you feel like stealing, or lusting after a woman who isn't your wife you shouldn't act on it. In the same way, Christians teach that you shouldn't act upon any gay feelings that you may have.

 

Where the issue comes up is that it's the current issue du jour in the media, especially pop culture (which is dominated by gays) and Christians like myself often feel like we're being attacked constantly. I've since given up watching most television (Cook's Country and America's Test Kitchen are the only shows I watch since Good Eats was cancelled) and I hardly ever go to the movies. When Kirk Cameron states his faith that he believes that homosexuality is wrong, he's "hate mongering." Tim Tebow can't actually be motivated by faith, he must be a grandstander. If you tell someone Merry Christmas, you're hateful to Jews and Atheists. Really? When you hear this crap on a daily basis from the god of most people's living rooms whether it be in the form of Ned Flanders, Sheldon's mother etc. it's natural to want to push back.

 

I've met more tolerant Christians and more intolerant atheists than the other way around.

Look, there's no war on Christmas, and there's no war on religion, either, unless you want to call just screaming things into the wind "wars".

 

Here's an example of your so-called "war";

1. A Christian does something incredibly insensitive.

2. Others call him/her/them out on it.

3. Because Christians have gotten away with it in the past, or because they're being told it's not right to treat others like dirt, they claim discrimination or that a "war" is being fought against them.

 

Also, here's a friendly little hint; when you refer to the LGBT community as "the gays" in a derogatory manner like that, we're not offended so much as bemused. "Oh no, the gays are coming to spread their sparkles and cheer around and somehow infect our children with gaaay!"