Religion Thread

[SixTwoSixFour]

You're basically saying that because you have some evidence then it's a fact. It doesn't work like that. You interpret the evidence as you want it but it's still only evidence. You don't have a fact that evolution occurs or takes place.

 

Interesting, because you're admitting that we have evidence, while you have none, and yet our position is the false one.

 

Edit: Careful Johnny or you'll run out of negs for the day again.

 

If you think it's just him, friend, bad news....

Edited February 15, 2012 by SixTwoSixFour

[TheFlyingGerbil]

what facts can you point to for creationism? That aren't from the Bible.

 

 

Yeah, it's easy to stand up to peer review when there's no way to disprove something like evolution.

Can't believe a person that believes in God would use this argument.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

Yeah, it's easy to stand up to peer review when there's no way to disprove something like evolution.

Ever thought that there's no way to disprove evolution because evolution is real (even the rational members of the church agree), and arguing otherwise is only something someone completely out of their minds would do?

[deanb]

What nature programs are you watching that called it "intelligent". Sure you're not watching something on "intelligent design"?

Evolution is that the most useful aspects in breeding propagate as these aspects raise survival, and thus allow the animal with that mutation to reproduce, spreading the mutation. For example many animals of about 4 foot in height eat all the leaves. But one animal is born with a 2foot tall neck, it can therefore eat from the top of the tree while the others starve. It then bones a lass and the children are born with long necks and are able to eat the higher leaves and not starve and get to fuck and so on so forth. Then we have the Giraffe.

 

Evolution clearly takes place, we see it in action constantly as already mentioned with the dogs and viruses.

 

but no one's arguing that gravity doesn't exist.

Oh you're not someone that follows the theory of gravity are you?

[VicariousShaner]

http://news.bbc.co.u...rica/180301.stm

 

Here is an example of a semi current finding of evolution happening right now.

Edited February 15, 2012 by VicariousShaner

[Connorrrr]

Y'know, I had a Religious Education teacher in school once. He was a Christian. He told me something that has stuck with me long since I left school.

 

"I know evolution to be true, but I believe in Christianity."

 

I think it takes a certain degree of strength to say that you know certain things you've been taught to and subsequently chosen to believe all your life might not be entirely based in fact. You can still follow the teachings, you can still believe in a higher power, but really, creationism doesn't have any legs to stand on.

[Baconrath]

Yeah, it's easy to stand up to peer review when there's no way to disprove something like evolution.

[FMW]

It's impossible to disprove the Christian omnipotent god. Our only way of determining if something exists or not is by collecting data through our senses. We see, hear, smell things that make of evidence for our world views. We see that things stick to the ground and feel ourselves stick to the ground, so we believe in Gravity.

 

But if you're dealing with an omnipotent God then it's impossible to disprove it because everything we sense is under it's control. If there is an omnipotent God, then any and everything we interact with could have been modified perfectly to conceal that God exists. It is I think logically impossible to disprove an omnipotent God ever.

 

BUT

 

It's impossible to prove the existence of God too. Since we figured out the scientific method, mankind has figured out a HELL of a lot. Gravity, Electricity, Thunder, Outer Space... we've pulled back the curtain and see a method behind the madness of the universe.

 

We have not yet figured out the machinations behind EVERYTHING in the universe. Indeed, there are countless things we don't know yet. However, there's absolutely no reason to believe that after discovering and figuring out so much that we're just going to... stop. We'll prove that Black Holes exist, we'll travel to other planets... really, we'll achieve anything we set our collective minds to. There's no reason to believe that anything is unexplainable, just that some things remain unexplained. Because of this there's no evidence of a God that is above the laws of physics.

 

So there. No way to prove there is/is not a god. Agnosticism FTW!

[Yantelope V2]

Well, if you want evidence or proof I've got a list of great books you could read.

• Darwin's Black Box (Behe)
  
• Intelligent Design (Dembski)
  
• The Soul of Science (Percy)
  
• Darwin on Trial (Johnson)
  
• Life is a Miracle (Berry)
  
• A History of Nearly Everything (Bryson)
  
• Redeeming Science (Poythress)
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model

 

So we had a lot of different models for the atom and we've learned a lot about it and the model has changed and grown as we've tested it and responded to it. That's science.

 

Evolution doesn't work like that. We can't test and respond to it in the same way and it can't be isolated and observed in the same way so you can't present it as a scientific fact the same way.

[Johnny]

Yantelope, nobody's going to go out and buy a book because you said so. We've explained to you how evolution works, could you please do the same and explain how your theory works?

 

Not that you can. It's all bullshit, we all know it already. And you've already claimed evolution can't be disproved.

 

Oh, incidentally:

 

Edit: Careful Johnny or you'll run out of negs for the day again.

 

I didn't downvote any of your posts yet. Might go back and do that though, as it's already being assumed it's me.

[TheMightyEthan]

@Yant: Books aren't evidence in the scientific sense. Unless you mean those books contain records of evidence.

[deanb]

My understanding of the bible and all other holy books etc was as a "how to live a nice life, do nice things, and maybe get into heaven/chosen after-life". Not a "World History 101". Which made sense. It'd be rather stupid to think men were made from clay/maize/tears etc. Then I found out some people actually do think it's fact. :/ Surely if one creation story is fact, then there's an equal chance they'd all be right, or all wrong. At least with evolution there's a single pillar to latch on to with mountains of evidence to back it up as fact, unlike the creation myths.

 

btw it's worth noting that many of the early scientific endeavours in explaining the workings of the world were driven by religious institutions like the catholic church. It was essentially work on understanding the wonders of gods creation.

 

addendum: Yes understanding of the atom changed. As did understanding of how life worked too. Once upon a time we used to think all animals were made at once ready and waiting. Then we observed, and went "wait, these animals are changing" and the theory of evolution was written to explain these changes. Kinda like how we used to think there were only 4 elements and everything was made of these in balance. Then we found out through trial n error this was bunkum, and we can up with new models. In fact Mendeleev got a model so awesome that it's still predicting elements to this day.

 

Some more Dara

 

p.s. Awesome for linking to books in this day n age

[madbassman39]

First things first, my background and beliefs.

 

My father has a distaste for religion, he grew up on a farm in England, and they just don't seem to care one way or another. My mom grew up in Michigan as a Catholic, she claims I'm Catholic too. I grew up with only what my mother told me of religion, we are not church going people and we don't seem to mind.

 

I had a belief, and understanding, of the basics of the Christian & Catholic religions, but was always open to understand and learn other religions. While my mom wishes I was more religious and shared her beliefs, I thank both of them for allowing me to learn and explore the cultures of different religions. I respect and understand all religions, because I have never been told that there is one true religion and the others are wrong. I don't believe that any religion tells you that, but there have been some people who have interpreted their religion to mean that.

 

I learned about evolution, and my immediate thought was "Wow, this makes sense why we share 99% of our DNA with every living creature on the planet. This explains why we look like apes and monkeys. This explains why we have useless parts of our body." I took evolution, not as fact, but as theory (as has been said above) to which I believe.

 

I also, after joining a fraternity in college, "found God." Not the Christian God, or the Jewish God, or even the Muslim God. No, I believe that there is some other will of force beyond understanding that exists. How else could we love? How else could we feel these other emotions? Sure there are scientific evidence that explains it, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. These emotions are as real as the toilet I currently am sitting on.

 

So I believe that there is a God, even if it isn't an ominous being out there, there is something more at work than just science.

 

This then begs the question, if there is a God, why do we believe that he/she perfected us as we are today? Isn't it possible that he/she created earth and life before he/she finished? Could God have had some hand in evolution? What caused that single celled organism to give its DNA to a mutant 2 celled organism? What caused the first animal to have a set of lungs to climb out of water to begin with? Something is at work, even if it is just entirely by random chance that this freak cell split into something more. Isn't random chance, in itself, an unexplained power in the universe?

 

You don't have to actually believe in evolution, nor has evolution ever been proven, but it has been widely accepted because there is physical evidence that backs it up. Unless more evidence is found that disproves it (and believe me people are searching for it), it will be widely accepted.

 

I would also like to state that in my 6th grade class (typically 11 years old for Americans, you Limey's have some different school system that I don't understand!), I learned both evolution AND religion. I studied all religions, from Greek "Mythology"** to the modern Christian beliefs, and I even covered the Islamic religion. They were all interesting, and I've learned something from reading and understanding the religious mindset.

 

Religion is powerful, because there is no fact to back it up, yet billions of people believe in some religion. They have faith, and that is what makes it so powerful, that someone is willing to fight for something they believe in, without cold hard facts. I know nobody would take somebodies word when buying a car that the "car runs fine" without even test driving it*** Religion teaches understanding, acceptance, and faith, to say that there is fact to back it up, in my humble opinion, belittles what is really at work.

 

** I quote Mythology for the Greek religion, because even if nobody believes in it anymore, it doesn't make it any less true than current living religions.

 

*** My neighbor bought a car in Texas on the internet without test driving it... It broke down 10 miles away, and the previous owner said, "your problem now." So some people do buy cars without test driving

Edited February 16, 2012 by madbassman39

[Mr. GOH!]

I dunno. DNA is a fact. Genetic inheritance is a fact. Molecular biology has borne out a lot of predictions based one evolutionary theory. We can observe short life-span organisms change over time and adapt to environments.

 

But why hate on evolution, Yant? Are you a Biblical literalist? Because then you gotta reject a lot more science, logic and sense.

[Yantelope V2]

Yes I'm a biblical literalist. I'm busted, I confess.

 

Actually though, it's funny, a lot of people don't generally attack the historicity of the book itself as it's the most well documented historical book of all time. Most people only generally attack the validity of the book and they didn't even bother to do that until hundreds of years after it's completion.

 

Anywho, all that aside, you guys owe it to yourself to go actually read some documentation on the opposing views of evolution. I'm not saying it'll change your mind but you do seem to be arguing that there is no contrary position, or at least not one based on science. I am here to tell you that is not true.

 

Also a confession, I need to do more reading on the science of it because I'm no expert on it.

[Yantelope V2]

Oh and back to the topic of people cramming their belifs down throats. I got to thinking about it more. I'll gladly confess that I'm not as open to the people around my about my faith as maybe I feel I ought to be. That being said I don't really ever get preached to or yelled at by christians who think I'm not a christian. I don't even really get witnessed to by muslims or even my mormon friends. I have had many very civil discussions with people of all different faiths. That being said the only time I'm ever really force fed doctrine seems to be by liberal media, movies, television and especially every nature show ever. College was practically a joke of libearal drivel and that was in Texas. I even at one point had a professor telling us that America dropped 2 bombs on Japan because we're an evil imperialist nation who only wanted to dominate poor Japan. I politely raised my hand and said "We dropped another bomb because they refused to surrender and were arming their women and children to fight to the death against us and by dropping the bomb we saved millions of lives on both sides by avoiding an inevitable invasion." He responded by saying that was beside the point. There's plenty of people in my live who've tried to force me thier beliefs though positions of power but it usually isn't christians.

[Battra92]

I dunno. DNA is a fact. Genetic inheritance is a fact. Molecular biology has borne out a lot of predictions based one evolutionary theory. We can observe short life-span organisms change over time and adapt to environments.

 

But why hate on evolution, Yant? Are you a Biblical literalist? Because then you gotta reject a lot more science, logic and sense.

 

[SixTwoSixFour]

-Text truncated to save space, quote is here to show who I'm replying to-

 

I can see that liberal bias has been an unpleasant thing for you. I know that it must be frustrating to be confronted with an opinion that you find repugnant in your everyday life. That said, unless you have a very very different media experience than me, liberal bias tends to be pretty understated- they shift the tone of their story, say, but they don't out and out make pro-lifers monsters, or say that anyone opposed to government run insurance is evil. Conservative bias CAN be understated, of course, but very often it's anything but. Fox News straight up lies in order to make liberals look bad, voices like Rush Limbaugh spit venom about left-leaning individuals, the right just seems so much more hateful than the left. Not saying the left is perfect, obviously we're not, but we aren't usually vicious.

 

As far as religion goes, atheists get basically no air time on TV that I've seen. I've never seen someone on TV out and out insult Christianity. I've seen some people, like comedians, poke fun at it. If that is what you mean, then I don't have a lot of sympathy- they're jokes, and you need to get over it. People make jokes at our expense all the time too, laugh along with it and it's all good. If it's something else, some other media phenomenon that you find deeply insulting as a Christian, all I can say is I have no idea what that could possibly be.

 

On the other hand, I HAVE seen Christians pushing for school prayer (which would, incredibly obviously, make the non-Christians feel pressured to join in, and like outsiders if they didn't), I have seen Christians arguing that non-Christians shouldn't be celebrating Christmas (or Easter, for that matter), I have seen Christians cry phrases like "founding fathers" and "what made this country great" when condemning the rest of the country for not going to church. That is what we're sick of. We're sick of the assumption that this is a Christian nation- it's not, that's the whole point. Freedom of religion. We're sick of the assumption that atheists are just Christians who have daddy issues. We're sick of being condescended to and generally treated like disobedient children because we don't have the same spiritual views as you.

 

I tried to keep this post as civil as possible, but there is a lot of anger on our sides, and since we make the effort not to be rude, we've built up a lot of that anger over time. Rage to spare.

Edited February 16, 2012 by SixTwoSixFour

[CorgiShinobi]

My opinion on prayer in school? There's a quote that goes, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools."

 

All kidding aside, there are instances where atheists have it their way. Of course, this is to say some atheists have it their way while the rest couldn't really care either way.

 

For a long while, there has been the issue of 12-foot tall crosses honoring the deaths of state troopers killed in the line of duty placed along a highway here in Utah. It was brought to court by three members of American Atheists Inc. stating that the crosses were promoting Christianity on public land. This has been going on for a couple of years, but in January it was decided that the crosses be removed and moved to private property.

 

Now, though I'm religious, when I first heard of this story I wasn't entirely sure. At that point I still have the same opinion today: Let them remain.

 

Quite frankly, while a cross can be religious, it also serves the secular purpose of marking a burial or remembrance of death. If you want to dig further, a cross was originally a torture device. Having a cross with a name on it doesn't exactly scream, "Have you embraced Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?"

 

Of course, what do I know? I'm religious and I was only ever agnostic for a year in my life, back when I was exploring who I was and what I alone believed in. I believe that was also the year when during Christmas there was a rather large "freedom of speech/religion" cockfight in Washington's capital building about having Christmas Trees and a Menorah in a government building. Local atheists put up a sign declaring there were no gods and etc, each side fought tooth and nail until nothing could be displayed in the capital building.

[Johnny]

Yes I'm a biblical literalist. I'm busted, I confess.

 

So, do you believe all the messed up stuff in the bible, or just the parts that suit you?

 

 

There's plenty of people in my live who've tried to force me thier beliefs though positions of power but it usually isn't christians.

 

I think it's worth noting that people don't often go after the people who believe the same things they do, which might be why Christians don't tend to be the ones that try to force a belief down your throat. Additionally, I think it's fairly likely that Christians don't assume you to be an atheist just because you haven't told them you're a Christian.

 

There's plenty of people in my life who have tried to force their beliefs, or rather, their viewpoint in life upon me. Ranging from fellow atheists, both gnostic and agnostic, religious people of several faiths, people who believe in various paranormal entities and other pseudo-scientific stuff. Though truth be told the majority of such events have been related to the christian faith, and the second largest portion is the paranormal and pseudo-science. This is something I find rather odd considering how large a population of atheists and agnostics we have here in Sweden.

 

I think everyone is perfectly entitled to their beliefs, and to discuss that belief with people on all sides of the fence as long as they, too, are voluntarily contributing to that debate. I have a few beliefs myself, that are not based in science or rationality, though they are very minor and not worth elaborating on here.

 

I think the crucial part is that while it is fine to believe in whatever you want, and it is fine to discuss that belief, it is not fine to tell people that they need to live by your personal beliefs. When you enter that arena, you better have a damn good reason for trying to tell people what they can and can not do. And you better be able to back up your reasoning with some objectively verifiable evidence.

 

 

In regards to what you call the liberal media:

If so-called "liberal" movies, music and TV can be seen as trying to force their beliefs on you, then so is all conservative/religious movies, music and TV forcing it down everyon else's throats. Incidentally, I don't think is fair at all. People should certainly be able to write and publish fiction that is based on their viewpoint in life, and that is not the same as trying to force it upon other people.

 

 

Quite frankly, while a cross can be religious, it also serves the secular purpose of marking a burial or remembrance of death. If you want to dig further, a cross was originally a torture device. Having a cross with a name on it doesn't exactly scream, "Have you embraced Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?"

 

As an atheist, I can tell you that I find the cross, specifically the cross in the common christian variation, to be synonymous with strong religious belief.

[Mr. GOH!]

Lots of folks attack the historical accuracy of the Bible. Aside from the Bible itself, there is little documented evidence of Jesus's time in Israel (not that the era was undocumented, that the existence and importance of nascent Christianity was undocumented until late First Century B.C.). There is also almost zero documentation outside of the Bible and Jewish scholasticism for anything before King Solomon. What evidence exists tends to be at odds with Biblical timelines.

 

The reason the Bible wasn't attacked until after it's "completion" is because it's historicism was largely in line with Jewish historicism, so the lines of attack were interpretation and whether Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Besides, largely illiterate societies tend *not* to question much of anything.

[Yantelope V2]

So, do you believe all the messed up stuff in the bible, or just the parts that suit you?

 

I don't know which "messed up" parts of the Bible you're referring to but I take the Bible as a whole. Of course the Bible uses allegory in many places throughout but it's also usually clear where it's not being literal.

 

In response to the rest of your text: I don't get much religion imposed on me from any religion not just Christians so whether or not other people think I'm a christian is moot.

 

In regards to having a good reason to impose your beliefs on others. Well, I don't think evangelical christians want to force anyone to do what they want them to do. They do want other people to believe what they believe but it's out of concern for that person's well being. There's nothing to be gained for the christian sharing in terms of rewards from God or anything like that.

 

In response to christian or conservative media, you kind of have to seek those things out. I'd love to know which contemporary sitcoms/movies/drama's you'd consider to be conservative. I can think of about two. LOTR and Narnia. Those are pretty well documented to be written by Christians though and they're pretty old. Try watching a single episode of Grey's Anatomy or Modern Family and tell me their not pushing a liberal agenda hard.

 

One time I was watching an episode of the children's cartoon "Recess". The children discovered "King Morty's Book of Rules". It was a very boring episode and not funny at all and I couldn't figure out what was going on. Basically King Morty had been king of the playground in WWII and had made a lot of rules about WWII such as not using rubber balls because they were needed for the war effort. The kids eventually hated the rules and finally the hero gets up and says "King Morty's rules were great for those people way back when but why should we follow a bunch of dumb rules written in a book long ago that no longer make any sense?". Anywho, I suppose you could say that I might have been reading too much into it but the only time I've ever really heard that same argument is when people are attacking the Bible.

 

There are subversive messages in all our media they just usually go unnocited to people unless they disagree with them. Perhaps that's why atheists feel that christians are ramming their religion down other peoples throats but I'm just trying to get home the point that there is a very strong push from the liberal atheist world in all forms of media that I feel is even stronger than the evangelical Christian minority pushing back.

[TheMightyEthan]

With the cross thing: if your'e marking a specific person's death, I am absolutely fine with a cross on public land. Not because crosses are a secular symbol, they are not, they are a Christian symbol, but I'm okay with it because they are representing the religion of that person who died, and religion is a very important factor in how people understand death. Now, I might think it was weird/insensitive if it was a Jewish officer who died and they put up a cross, they should instead put up something like what the military does with crosses for Christians, Stars of David for Jews, star and crescents for Muslims, etc.

[Yantelope V2]

-Text truncated to save space, quote is here to show who I'm replying to-

 

I can see that liberal bias has been an unpleasant thing for you. I know that it must be frustrating to be confronted with an opinion that you find repugnant in your everyday life. That said, unless you have a very very different media experience than me, liberal bias tends to be pretty understated- they shift the tone of their story, say, but they don't out and out make pro-lifers monsters, or say that anyone opposed to government run insurance is evil. Conservative bias CAN be understated, of course, but very often it's anything but. Fox News straight up lies in order to make liberals look bad, voices like Rush Limbaugh spit venom about left-leaning individuals, the right just seems so much more hateful than the left. Not saying the left is perfect, obviously we're not, but we aren't usually vicious.

 

Well, I'm not going to jump on and defend Fox or Rush. I will say I've heard Liberal talk radio shows which call anyone who liked George W. Bush homophobes. If the right seems more hateful than the left then perhaps a matter of perception.

 

 

As far as religion goes, atheists get basically no air time on TV that I've seen. I've never seen someone on TV out and out insult Christianity. I've seen some people, like comedians, poke fun at it. If that is what you mean, then I don't have a lot of sympathy- they're jokes, and you need to get over it. People make jokes at our expense all the time too, laugh along with it and it's all good. If it's something else, some other media phenomenon that you find deeply insulting as a Christian, all I can say is I have no idea what that could possibly be.

 

On the other hand, I HAVE seen Christians pushing for school prayer (which would, incredibly obviously, make the non-Christians feel pressured to join in, and like outsiders if they didn't), I have seen Christians arguing that non-Christians shouldn't be celebrating Christmas (or Easter, for that matter), I have seen Christians cry phrases like "founding fathers" and "what made this country great" when condemning the rest of the country for not going to church. That is what we're sick of. We're sick of the assumption that this is a Christian nation- it's not, that's the whole point. Freedom of religion. We're sick of the assumption that atheists are just Christians who have daddy issues. We're sick of being condescended to and generally treated like disobedient children because we don't have the same spiritual views as you.

 

I tried to keep this post as civil as possible, but there is a lot of anger on our sides, and since we make the effort not to be rude, we've built up a lot of that anger over time. Rage to spare.

 

Atheists get tons of airtime. All you ever have to do is watch National Geographic, Planet Earth, pretty much any nature show.

 

In regards to freedom of religion. I'd say that it guarantees we can worship whoever we want. Christians don't want to be kicked out of school for praying. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion and I completely agree that we should be able to have any belief we want (or lack of belief) and it's very hard to give one person their beliefs without infringing upon another's. It's a difficult question but it's not as simple as kicking God out of school and Government all together because doing so violates other people's freedom of religion. It's a complicated subject.

[excel_excel]

Atheists get tons of airtime. All you ever have to do is watch National Geographic, Planet Earth, pretty much any nature show.

 

Nature shows is the only place atheists get airtime? Doesn't that seem kind of unfair that they don't get airtime on regular shows? And if that's true, you actually think that's fair?

Edited February 16, 2012 by excel_excel