Religion Thread

[FMW]

Hang on, how are nature shows athiest? I mean, nature shows don't really concern themselves with religion at all do they? They just kinda show cool things that most people don't get to see in their humdrum lives and explain what's going on when it gets confusing.

 

Nature shows are cool! They show all the cool stuff on the planet I don't know about. Don't hate on nature shows I'm pretty sure they aren't aiming to promote any religious agenda at all

[Yantelope V2]

Well, to be fair, Nature shows push the evolution agenda. They aren't really pushing atheism directly.

[TheMightyEthan]

In regards to freedom of religion. I'd say that it guarantees we can worship whoever we want. Christians don't want to be kicked out of school for praying. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion and I completely agree that we should be able to have any belief we want (or lack of belief) and it's very hard to give one person their beliefs without infringing upon another's. It's a difficult question but it's not as simple as kicking God out of school and Government all together because doing so violates other people's freedom of religion. It's a complicated subject.

 

I agree it's a complex subject, but there is one thing in here that I see pop up a lot that's just incorrect: no one's getting kicked out of (public) schools for praying. You can pray in school all you want and no one will/can stop you (though you might get in trouble for not paying attention or if you're praying in a disruptive manner, i.e. praying aloud in the middle of class). The only thing that's not allowed is school-sponsored prayers.

 

Also, I wanted to add in my last post but forgot: I accidentally downvoted one of Yant's posts above. I was trying to click to see who had up-voted it just out of curiosity, but I missed and hit the down-vote button instead. I'm sorry.

[Yantelope V2]

Also, I wanted to add in my last post but forgot: I accidentally downvoted one of Yant's posts above. I was trying to click to see who had up-voted it just out of curiosity, but I missed and hit the down-vote button instead. I'm sorry.

 

All is forgiven.

[SixTwoSixFour]

I don't know which "messed up" parts of the Bible you're referring to but I take the Bible as a whole. Of course the Bible uses allegory in many places throughout but it's also usually clear where it's not being literal.

 

Messed up parts of the Bible? I gotta make this a separate post, hang on.

 

Try watching a single episode of Grey's Anatomy or Modern Family and tell me their not pushing a liberal agenda hard.

 

One time I was watching an episode of the children's cartoon "Recess". The children discovered "King Morty's Book of Rules". It was a very boring episode and not funny at all and I couldn't figure out what was going on. Basically King Morty had been king of the playground in WWII and had made a lot of rules about WWII such as not using rubber balls because they were needed for the war effort. The kids eventually hated the rules and finally the hero gets up and says "King Morty's rules were great for those people way back when but why should we follow a bunch of dumb rules written in a book long ago that no longer make any sense?".

 

Speaking as a liberal, I thought the message of Grey's Anatomy was "sleeping with coworker is totally professional and okay," and I can tell you we definitely don't endorse that. Just because a lot of media has shitty messages doesn't therefore mean that they have liberal messages.

 

That example you gave is pretty striking, though. Perhaps it is more prominent than I thought.

 

I will say I've heard Liberal talk radio shows which call anyone who liked George W. Bush homophobes. If the right seems more hateful than the left then perhaps a matter of perception.

 

I haven't heard that, but it does sound like something people would say. I don't think I've ever heard Liberal talk radio- I'm out here in the middle of Illinois, perhaps it's just not on the airwaves out here.

 

Christians don't want to be kicked out of school for praying. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion and I completely agree that we should be able to have any belief we want (or lack of belief) and it's very hard to give one person their beliefs without infringing upon another's. It's a difficult question but it's not as simple as kicking God out of school and Government all together because doing so violates other people's freedom of religion. It's a complicated subject.

 

Any time a Christian wants to pray, you can just close your eyes and pray silently. Matthew 6:6- "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Prayer isn't supposed to be a public spectacle. It's a quiet communication between you and god, and that's FINE in public.

 

I will agree that it's a complicated subject, though.

 

Well, to be fair, Nature shows push the evolution agenda. They aren't really pushing atheism directly.

 

I know you have problems with evolution, but you must see that it has the most supporting evidence. Nature shows push the evolution "agenda" because of all the evidence supporting it. If there was more evidence supporting intelligent design, nature shows would be talking about that. They go with what appears to be true at the time.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

Yant, I can name many movies that push a conservative, Christian agenda.

 

First, let's get the obvious one out of the way and say Atlas Shrugged: Part 1.

 

Then there's Seven Days in Utopia, which is all about finding God in golf.

 

There's Flywheel, Facing the Giants, Fireproof, and Courageous, four movies made by the same Christians that are all about finding Jesus and living a conservative life. I only saw Facing the Giants out of those four, but I can say that it was the most bullshit sports movie I've ever seen. All of their problems, even infertility, were solved by just saying a few prayers. You don't suddenly become an ubercoach because you threw up a few Hail Marys.

 

Anything Tyler Perry and anything Madea.

 

Since you used Recess as an example of liberals indoctrinating our youth, I thought it was only fair to include The Incredibles, the granddaddy of all conservative, Randian cartoons, made by none other than Disney and Pixar.

[TheMightyEthan]

How is The Incredibles conservative?

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

The main conflict in The Incredibles is between this super-powered family and a man that wants to make sure "no one is special" by giving everyone in the world access to gadgets that would essentially give them the same powers a superhero would have. The reason Mr. Incredible and his family are so down and out at the beginning is the government essentially "regulates" them, so they aren't allowed to fulfill their potential. It preaches the dangers of awarding mediocrity, and these people are so much better than humans, so why don't they get to be better than humans in public? The movie practically sets up these gifted individuals as the true heroes, and anyone attempting to reach their level "unnaturally" is considered a villain.

[SixTwoSixFour]

Okay... messed up stuff in the Bible... oooo, this is gonna be fun.

 

The Discrimination Section

 

2 Samuel 5:8

 

And David said on that day, Whosoever ... smiteth ... the blind that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

 

 

Leviticus 20:13

 

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

 

2 John 7

 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

 

Leviticus 21:17-23

 

Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

 

 

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

 

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.

 

 

The Stoning Section

 

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

 

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.

 

 

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

 

 

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (Good old Deuteronomy, so many stonings)

 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

 

 

Numbers 15:32-56

 

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses

 

 

General Dickery

 

2 Chronicles 15:13

 

Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

 

 

Genesis 38:9-10

 

And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

 

 

Matthew 10:34

 

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

 

 

I guess that's enough for now. There is some messed up shit in the Bible.

[Yantelope V2]

I can't speak to Tyler Perry because I haven't seen any of his work. What values does he try to sell?

 

Of the other movies you're talking about the only one I've seen is Fireproof (the in-laws made us watch it). It grossed about 33 million across only 900 theaters. Not exactly considered a wide release. Yes there's christian media out there but it's made by small communities on extremely limited budgets (just watch the movies if you don't believe me). It's not exactly any competition with major hollywood movies and they never get any sort of critical recognition (not that they necessarily deserve it).

 

@6264: I'd love to dig into some of those things, I'm at work now though so probably going to have to respond to all of it later.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Yantelope V2

[TheMightyEthan]

The main conflict in The Incredibles is between this super-powered family and a man that wants to make sure "no one is special" by giving everyone in the world access to gadgets that would essentially give them the same powers a superhero would have. The reason Mr. Incredible and his family are so down and out at the beginning is the government essentially "regulates" them, so they aren't allowed to fulfill their potential. It preaches the dangers of awarding mediocrity, and these people are so much better than humans, so why don't they get to be better than humans in public? The movie practically sets up these gifted individuals as the true heroes, and anyone attempting to reach their level "unnaturally" is considered a villain.

 

Interesting interpretation, but I don't know that I'm convinced that was actually the intent (difference between allegory and applicability). For instance, I could point out that the movie makes the point that the only reason the villain became a villain was because the "Supers" thought they were better than everyone else and wouldn't let him help.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

I can't speak to Tyler Perry because I haven't seen any of his work. What values does he try to sell?

 

Of the other movies you're talking about the only one I've seen is Fireproof (the in-laws made us watch it). It grossed about 33 million across only 900 theaters. Not exactly considered a wide release. Yes there's christian media out there but it's made by small communities on extremely limited budgets (just watch the movies if you don't believe me). It's not exactly any competition with major hollywood movies and they never get any sort of critical recognition (not that they necessarily deserve it).

 

@6264: I'd love to dig into some of those things, I'm at work now though so probably going to have to respond to all of it later.

Tyler Perry's movies aren't as overt as something like Fireproof, but they feature heavy gospel themes (several of the movies/plays feature prominent gospel musicians, and many scenes take place in a church) and preach about the importance of family. Madea has a daughter, Cora Simmons, who is a devout Catholic and lays it on pretty thick. She's in almost every Madea production.

[SixTwoSixFour]

@6264: I'd love to dig into some of those things, I'm at work now though so probably going to have to respond to all of it later.

 

Looking forward to it.

[Yantelope V2]

Tyler Perry's movies aren't as overt as something like Fireproof, but they feature heavy gospel themes (several of the movies/plays feature prominent gospel musicians, and many scenes take place in a church) and preach about the importance of family. Madea has a daughter, Cora Simmons, who is a devout Catholic and lays it on pretty thick. She's in almost every Madea production.

 

Would you argue that pushing family values is pushing the conservative agenda? I thought most people on both sides think that having strong family groups is something to be pursued, depending on your definition of family of course.

[Little Pirate]

Okay... messed up stuff in the Bible... oooo, this is gonna be fun.

 

The Discrimination Section

 

2 Samuel 5:8

 

And David said on that day, Whosoever ... smiteth ... the blind that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

 

 

Leviticus 20:13

 

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

 

2 John 7

 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

 

Leviticus 21:17-23

 

Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

 

 

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

 

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.

 

 

The Stoning Section

 

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

 

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.

 

 

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

 

 

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (Good old Deuteronomy, so many stonings)

 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

 

 

Numbers 15:32-56

 

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses

 

 

General Dickery

 

2 Chronicles 15:13

 

Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

 

 

Genesis 38:9-10

 

And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

 

 

Matthew 10:34

 

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

 

 

I guess that's enough for now. There is some messed up shit in the Bible.

Edited February 16, 2012 by LittlePirate

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

Tyler Perry's movies aren't as overt as something like Fireproof, but they feature heavy gospel themes (several of the movies/plays feature prominent gospel musicians, and many scenes take place in a church) and preach about the importance of family. Madea has a daughter, Cora Simmons, who is a devout Catholic and lays it on pretty thick. She's in almost every Madea production.

 

Would you argue that pushing family values is pushing the conservative agenda? I thought most people on both sides think that having strong family groups is something to be pursued, depending on your definition of family of course.

I think a family can be fine, but I don't really understand stressing a giant importance on it, especially when so many of these dumb "family advocacy" groups are hate groups in disguise.

[Yantelope V2]

 

The context and time period aren't what is important. The covenant (or man's relationship to God) did change though with the death of Jesus on the cross.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

That why do Christians still use stuff from the old testament to hate on people?

[Yantelope V2]

Well, that video at least is confusing two different things. What is and isn't considered sinful doesn't change. The code of rules under which we live by do. It's specifically addressed in the beatitudes by Jesus in a very familiar passage.

 

"

5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’⁴⁵ 5:39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer.⁴⁶ But whoever strikes you on the⁴⁷ right cheek, turn the other to him as well. 5:40 And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic,⁴⁸ give him your coat also. 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile,⁴⁹ go with him two. 5:42 Give to the one who asks you,⁵⁰ and do not reject⁵¹ the one who wants to borrow from you."

 

Jesus changed the way that we are supposed to react to those who do evil to us. He didn't change what was considered sinful but he did call us to respond in a different way.

[TheMightyEthan]

Many Christians do pick and choose what they consider to be sinful, though. To go back to the same trite example, most Christians wouldn't consider it a sin to wear a cotton/polyester blend.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

Many Christians do pick and choose what they consider to be sinful, though. To go back to the same trite example, most Christians wouldn't consider it a sin to wear a cotton/polyester blend.

and the craziest part is anyone that wears polycotton should be a stoned to death.

[Yantelope V2]

In the interest of time (I haven't read the whole article) the idea of dispensationalism i kind of where I'm going.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

[Mister Jack]

Whether you like Richard Dawkins or not, listening to him read poorly constructed hate mail with a sophisticated British accent is pretty amusing.

EDIT - What the hell, why can't I embed it? Edited February 17, 2012 by Deanb
cos you use the URL not embed code from Youtube.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

[Mister Jack]

Thanks, but what did you do? I tried just hitting the media button and pasting the URL in but that obviously didn't work. I dunno why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.