deanb

Keep in mind KS is for more than just games, not all projects are things that can be pre-ordered. And while there is an overlap of sorts, a pre-order within retail space would have different rules to a backing in a KS project. In fact I think the legal ground on KS with regards to the mix is currently in an untested grey zone. But that's for another thread. With Broken (and Planescape to tune of $100K too actually) there is as mentioned Steven Dengler. Already thrown $1million at DF before Broken Age KS and has thrown more at them for broken age, but I'm not sure how much or if part of the KS backing amount. I'd wager given prior investments that this was something with a bit more than a game expected back.

@FDS: My point being that it clearly acts differently on jailbroken devices, despite your little insistence there that it acts exactly the same. If it acted exactly the same on normal and jailbroken devices then it wouldn't have been an issue at all would it? @TME: The compatibility listing is however managed by Apple, so if it's to be listed as compatible with certain devices and blocked from purchase and download by unsupported devices Apple would have to test it against those devices. Basically Apples policy is zero fucks given for jailbroken folks, it's not going to list compatibility, or lack thereof, of jailbroken devices. Certainly not going to highlight that they exist right there in their store too. If an app doesn't work on your device, due to a bug on developer intervention, then they're not going to give a damn. I'm not misunderstanding you, you just seem to think there's some magical difference is made for jailbroken folks. There's nothing for them, at all. See mixed message here, you accept what their TOS says, but you still do the hand waving dismissiveness of it. TOS can't take your rights away, and in this case it isn't, so those elements are be all and end all aspects. There's 900,000 apps on the App Store, and the expectation is that Apple is not to cater towards jailbroken devices, but on this one specific app (which btw as noted earlier isn't the only app to ever restrict jailbroken users, it just happens to be a game app so enters our circles) should be catered for specifically by Apple towards listing compatibility towards jailbroken users? I'm not deliberately misunderstanding you, it just seems contradictory to say Apple shouldn't be expected to support jailbroken devices, yet for this one app they should make an exception to that rule. That's the part I struggle to understand. It just seems, to use earlier words, stupid.

I know they did it on purpose. My very first post on this topic was "oh this must be an anti-piracy measure", and their post on the matter all but confirmed it. (Which disregarding the jailbroken stuff there's certainly nothing obligating devs to cater to pirates and point out what anti-piracy measures they've implemented.) It acts exactly the fucking same. It clearly doesn't

So here was an interesting article RTed into my feed by Kieron Gillen earlier: http://www.reactionzine.com/poor-community-spirit/ It kind of talks about how spoilers are classist to a degree, favouring the rich over the poor. I guess I can sympathise with the argument given I'm not really in a position to be buying games at launch. In the case of Infinite the only reason I had it at launch was due to Chewblaha pre-ordering it for me. Dishonored is a relatively recent game I've played that I also had spoiled for me ahead of time due to reading Tenshi's article on the games plot elements (I could maybe have opted out, but would be bad manners for editor to do so). I find to a large degree too if you're late to the party you might as well have not bothered coming along at all. Sparking discussion (anywhere, not just here) months after a games release can be quite a struggle. And if you're quite into the water cooler nature of gaming then it's a bit of a bummer. Skipping the classism stuff, generally I'm fine with spoilers, I'm in the camp that knowing spoilers ahead of time can enrich the experience. If I found spoilers ruined the experience I wouldn't be playing FFIX multiple times knowing the true nature of Zidane, Vivi and Dagger. It helps make sign posts, elements of the game might otherwise have ignored, more notable along the way. Rare is the occasion for someone else to be able to so fully spoil a game (or film) ahead of time that all surprise is lost anyway. They'd need to get pretty specific to do so.

Except Apples testing system is highly unlikely to include jailbroken devices, so how are Apple to know how an app will act on jailbroken devices? And the caveat of jailbroken devices is already included in the TOS, which encompasses the whole store, meaning no need to individually post on app store listings that jailbroken devices aren't supported. Kind of like how such a suggestion that a jailbroken device is required is likely not something pasted on all the Cydia store apps. How'd you think it feels over here when it seems like the "I am a lawyer" card you pulled earlier (and weakened stance on since too) seems to encompass a blind spot for the words "TOS" and "EULA", because you've not really once acknowledged that their TOS precludes the requirement of jailbroken device support. As best I understand it we all agree it was a badly handled anti-piracy attempt by Eidos. One they're going to revert. And as best I understand it we all agree that the law means jailbreaking is perfectly legal. It seems the only disagreement is if there should be catering by Apple to support jailbroken devices through their app store. If I was the kind of guy that was fine with a single store, and that single store being through the guys that make the OS and the hardware, and all that that entails in the control side of things, I wouldn't be on my second Android phone.

If you're having to specifically state "this app will not work fully on jailbroken devices" that's catering to jailbroken devices. And ME3 was advertised as having lots of endings, it's why the RGB endings became quite a big deal. They specify otherwise in the TOS for the store. I'm not sure how many times that has to be said. Apple operate a walled garden, they put up rules and such, and one of those rules is in order to make use of thier software and services you don't jailbreak your device. iTunes App store is one of their services. The law to my understanding says Apple cannot stop you from jailbreaking your device, you're free to modify your own device as you see fit. The law however doesn't say they must accommodate for you, it is still their service, with their terms as they see fit. Therefore they are under no obligation to check and notify in their listings, that the apps put forward for testing not only work on devices sold as-is, but also on devices modified by the end user.

Yeah it seemed a bit odd to me the suggestion that they'd spent 6 months not working on the project. But as I said it'd happened with projects before and given the vastly expanded time scale of BA it seemed plausible. I imagine the production costs of the video side of things will have expanded quite a bit given it'll have gone from a 6-8 month project to a 2 year dealy-o. Which I'm kinda curious if 2PP are happy with that. It kinda keeps them off the map for quite a lot longer than expected working on a single project. Of course it's also 2 years of guaranteed work. Eh not really combining the two. My solution (Well not really mine, in light of the BA budget issues it's a thing many minds have suggested and I agree with it) works on the assumption of KS as a backing/investment, not as a pre-order. The pre-order side of things (assuming it's a project with pre-orders) comes later through sales on projects site or relevant storefront (Steam, Etsy, iTunes, etc) Yeah the KS FAQ's are mostly guidelines. KS rarely enforce the rules, especially on larger projects. They're pretty hands off to a large degree.

Because you carry on saying that. You also said at the start about wanting a refund. And saying there needs to be an exception written in the list of supported devices specifically sating that jailbroken devices don't work. When Apple don't cater for jailbroken devices anyway. As far as a anti-piracy technique it's much the same idea though by disabling an in-game feature. The Deus Ex game as sold actually does work*, it runs and all that stuff, you just can't fire your gun, much in the same way Batman works, you just can't jump the pass about halfway through the game. And it does work on the phones listed, none of the phones listed are jailbroken devices, which are the devices it doesn't work on. *Which I'm to understand is enough to cover anti-consumer laws as I'm to understand. Mainly thinking back to ME3 and it not having the thousands of promised endings yet it being in the clear because hey at the end of the day it still runs.

So this happened. Thankfully an apology came, but how does something like that happen? I assume an unhappy intern maybe?

Well except your money back. What's steam's policy on that? If we're talking about Early Access titles, unlike Pre-orders where it is possible to get a simple refund before the game is out (sometimes a nice bonus to being European, 3 day window to see if a game is super-fucked), Early Access games are treated as being launched, so no easy refunds without media campaigns such as with The War Z. For Kickstarter, if a project is backed there's a minor buffer window where the money is transferred to the project, after that you're SOL on getting money back without legal intervention. Though given in most cases it's like $15 or so you're likely to eat it as a loss. The guys that pay like $1000 for a night out on the town with project team however might not roll with it. There has been a couple incidents where a project has come across as a scam, though most of the time that's during the funding stay. Such as that Mythic game with all the stolen artwork.

@FDS: Yeah I know what jailbreaking does and allows for. It's still against their TOS. Therefore there is no expectation for Apple to cater for you, to provide support, or guarantee their services and software will fully work with your device. @MJ: Eh, it's a lazy mans route. Likely easy enough to check the elevation status of the user than it is to implement something to detect if the app is cracked or not. @TME: Yes I agree with you it is a dick move for them to put in the jailbreak = no guns thing. However there's nothing saying they have to specifically mark it as such, and Apple doesn't have to provide people with refunds that are using their app store service and breaking the TOS. My copy of Arkham Asylum that if I crack the executable then Batman's cape will no longer work rendering functions of the game inoperable, doesn't include any such notice despite being out for 3 years. And yeah I think FDS is in one of his "must disagree with everyone even if they're on separate sides" kind of moods today.

Oh, well pre-production is part of production. Kinda made it sound like they'd not started until months in (which wouldn't be the first KS to do that.) Lacking a design document, omitting the frequent greenlight meetings, etc. It's sounding less and less like this is a game that's providing an insight into how games are made and more into how this one game was very specifically made, as well as an eventually late template on how not to do a KS campaign. Also wasn't the documentary only $20K or so of the original, how has it ended up swelling to 25% of the budget? (making the documentary nearly twice the original projects budget). Apart from it still being an adventure game made by Tim Schafer it seems it's not really hit much of the original pitch. (Not to say it's not going to be bad, but it has pretty much fucked up on every single bullet point of the project pitch). They're only slightly beyond the projected half way line, and when they said March that'll be about the same point in the project length as they are now. So I'm not thinking they're any more solid at gauging the actual launch date than when they first pitched. Also I think at the end of the day given the pseudo-transparency of the project I'm not sure this'll give much more info on what is cut than through artbooks and stuff too. Voice work and music was kind of assumed given it was to be on-par with stuff like Day of the Tentacle. They were pitching old-school, not super dooper retro. A lot of the cost in Costume Quest and Stacked was through it being 3D, something that (as best I can tell, and given the original pitch) BA is avoiding using. I would say the eventual solution, though KS guys enjoy money too much to implement it, would be to put some kind of a cap on funding, say 125% funding or something. Anything beyond can potentially go through the projects website but at that point the project is funded and much anything else is just pre-orders really. And yeah, FDS is pretty spot on. Kickstarter isn't meant to be used as a pre-order service. That's what stores are for. It's meant to be backing (though not really investing) into projects. The project team should be treating it as that way too, the backers are investors into your project and pitch, not purchasers of a product you may or may not produce (not all KS projects are even entirely sellable as a product anyway).

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/07/12/final-fantasy-xx-2-hd-remaster-will-have-international-edition-content/ Hooray, it's the EU release.

Well yes, but the expectation would be for no app to run fine on a jailbroken device. edit: http://ht.ly/mV2gh it's getting removed. Given the "legitimate customers", yeah it was an anti-piracy measure.

See here's a huge problem with Origin. Their online store actually has a big ass banner for their anniversary sale (though it doesn't click to link to games that are on sale mind). But then their client is pretty much as you've posted above.

@TME: Many people do many things they're not meant to, doesn't mean they should all be accommodated for. Bricking a device would be destruction of property, so yeah pretty clear "don't do that". They would however be more than likely within their rights to make it so that no Apple apps were to run on the device at all. As it stands with Android the Google Apps you have to kinda hack (not much to it tbh) into your phone if you've a custom ROM. @MJ: Yeah it's a dick move, that's the part we all agree on. Whether Apple is obligated to give refunds for folks using the iTunes store to buy apps that aren't guaranteed to work is the matter that's of contention. As for the why, as mentioned early on, more than likely just because 99.99% of iOS pirates are to be found on jailbroken devices. And Eidos will more than likely want to deter pirates from playing their games. It just fucked up. @FDS: Ask Ethan that one, he's the one saying that provisions should be made to mark all apps as not running on Jailbroken devices, I'm the one saying that such a clause is basically written into the TOS.

They took 6 months to even start? Despite originally going to be mostly finished at that point in original plan? I guess they at least started how they aimed to carry on. Shame they've failed to hit both their original launch time, their second launch time, and I guess we'll find out this time next year if they even hit their way-way out in the future third launch target. Backers are customers now? Though it's not meant to be pre-orders? And no doubt the final game will be worth the $4million+ it'll have eventually costed instead of the $400K it was meant to be, bit of a no brainer. Though it's definitely not going to be the game that was pitched and backed (and given the cuts it's not going to be the rescoped game either). Though I guess it's to each and their own on how much weighting is placed in the "not paying extra" element. A game like SRIV might cost $40million to make, and cost $60 to buy a copy of, and GTAV cost like $120million and at no extra cost to you, still be $60 to buy. People didn't really feel slightly to be paying $15 for a $400K 6-8mth small team game. Also I can't see it being universally praised to find out the game is going to take four times longer than originally pitched.

Right, but given you have to agree to it to use iOS and the iTunes app store, it is within Apples reasonable assumption to make that you're not using a Jailbroken device, because you gave them your word you're not, so why should they have to make provisions for those that are lying to them and actually are using a jailbroken device to buy apps?

Yeah the (assumedly) dad behind their shoulders in the MS link HH gave is what reminded me of the Incognito line.

Didn't say it can't be changed. Just that Apple put it in their TOS that it shouldn't.

FTL is dirt cheap. The randomization is kinda cheap, but there's some neat mods and...well it's dirt cheap to buy.

They're not meant to jailbreak at all would be the point. You agree, in order to use iOS and the many apps and services that come with it, to not fuck about with the innards and such. You fucked about with the innards.