Yantelope

Many times if a game is broken or buggy then you can find that out by reading a review or checking forums. Rage has made that pretty clear right now. Also, most times that a game is actually broken you'll find developers will either fix it or offer refunds. EA just did that for the PC version of Tiger Woods. At any rate, I don't find it morally wrong unless the game actually doesn't work as advertised. At the end of the day, where we differ is that I still hold that you can't make the statement that you wouldn't have bought the game if you couldn't pirate it and I don't believe that piracy leads to more overall game purchases. It may lead you to change your game purchases but I find it a sketchy proposition at best to think that it actually leads to more game sales. And yeah, if you want to use test drives for an example, if a dealer doesn't want to give you a test drive and you don't want to take a risk then don't buy his car. Why bother helping him out? @Fuchikoma, you said you'll never buy demon souls because you can't pirate it. Well, that's your choice but the way I see it, if it's something that I have interest in playing it I'd probably go ahead and drop the $13 on a used copy and give it a whirl. You might be missing out on a game you'd love to play but I guess that's your option.

I'd be happy to explain why I think any piracy is immoral. If somebody creates something in order to sell it and is acting under the protection of the law in order to do so I find it wrong for someone else to take that work against the will of the individual or group of people who created it. Many times it's not solely up to the developer to decide this since they sign a contract with a publisher which they have to abide by as well. If everyone who created and legally has rights to the game decided to give it away then fine but then it's not called piracy is it? I don't believe that the ends justify the means. Even if by stealing bread you avoid starving or even prevent someone else from starving your stealing of that bread was still wrong. You can say that I'm archaic. That's fine. Also, I didn't quit the argument. I had church and a softball game to go to (unrelated to each other). I also ignore all the points which have become circular. I say you can't know what you will do, you say you can, the point is dead so I move on. Not really sure there's much to be gained on that front so I drop it and proceed down other paths that I think might help.

I don't see how it's hypocritical. It's the attitude of self righteousness from pirates that really bothers me. The actual pirating, while I think it's wrong, doesn't bother me quite so much. Maybe it's because I can understand how a rational person could pirate a game but I can't understand how a rational person would pirate a game and then tell himself that what he's doing is morally right. Profit isn't my quantifier of morality. I think it's still wrong to steal bread even if you're starving and somebody has excess. Just because you return an item you stole it doesn't make it okay to steal that item.

yes. A long time ago I quit this topic because someone just admitted "I know what I'm doing is wrong but I don't care". That's all I really cared to hear.

It's amazing to me how quickly your "logic" becomes "fact". I'm not selling any of my judgments on you guys as anything other than my opinions in regards to you pirates all being a bunch of frankly, entitled whiners, but at least I'm not pretending that it's a fact because two or three other people agree with me. oh, and here: educate yourself. http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/275/7/560.extract

No what they're doing is illegally acquiring software and applying a "taste test" analogy to justify it morally. The problem which you guys are all again glossing over is this "Game companies generally don't offer this though because they're not selling you enjoyment. They're selling you the opportunity or an attempt at entertainment. That's not good enough for pirates and they take matters into their own hands. I'm fully willing to argue that even if you played a game that you didn't enjoy and you didn't pay for it then you're still doing something immoral" Oh yeah, and BTW: I thought we weren't allowed to use analogies with physical goods or oh, does that not apply to your arguments, only mine?

Hilarious that this game is called Rage because the er, hate, for it is palpable. http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037840623&postcount=682

No, you're just clearly not answering my question because you know the answer. The number of games that you didn't buy because you couldn't pirate them is 0. That's the answer and that's why you're argument is invalid because you're arguing something you can't know. and @fuchikoma: I've never heard of someone researching pot smoking and then going through with it but it makes me respect you less and not more. You can find opinions to support whatever position you'd like to take but I suppose you didn't bother listening to the AMA. (I was gonna link to a study here showing that long term effects on the brain are pretty negative but searching for pot studies at work might be a good way to get yourself red flagged).

and why can't you pirate a PS3 game? Don't care enough to? It's not worth your time or money?

You can't possibly know that right there because you did pirate the game. @Dean and MasterDex: Give me an example of a game that you did not buy because you couldn't pirate it.

The issue here is really quite simple, rather than just go around in circles again I'll simply restate this another way. Demoers feel entitled. I don't know why but for some reason you claim that if you don't get enjoyment from your money you've been cheated. This is an entirely bogus concept. The basis of your argument is wholly and entirely based on your one omniscient claim of knowing that you would never buy the game if you couldn't demo it. Did you buy games back in the days of the SNES? Did you never play a single game until the days of the internet? Do you demo every single game before you buy it? No. You don't. Clearly you have the option of making a ration decision without having to pirate a game. If piracy wasn't available you'd weigh your options and you'd pick games that you think you'd enjoy and that's what most rational people do. You think that because you paid $10 for a game and you didn't enjoy it your time was wasted? Your time was worth nothing? Maybe the publishers owe you money because they made you spend your time on a product that didn't bring you joy? No, the fact is that by pirating a game you're getting entertainment that you didn't pay for. A normal person would buy the games at whatever price they're willing to pay and requesting a refund if they were unsatisfied. Game companies generally don't offer this though because they're not selling you enjoyment. They're selling you the opportunity or an attempt at entertainment. That's not good enough for pirates and they take matters into their own hands. I'm fully willing to argue that even if you played a game that you didn't enjoy and you didn't pay for it then you're still doing something immoral. Your sense of entitlement is what's making you think it's not immoral.

Completely agree, so stop pretending like you can know the future by saying that you know you wouldn't have bought the game. The more I think about this the more silly it sounds. "I know for a fact that I wouldn't have bought the game if I could never try it first but then by playing it I usually do buy the game."

That scene is actually much funnier now that kinect is out.

That doesn't mean that you wouldn't have bought if you hadn't pirated. You don't know the answer to that question. There are many experiences in life which you cannot pirate, like a trip to six flags, and those things do not allow you pay only if you find that they were enjoyable. This is the definition of nonsensical. They reason why you pirated it is because you already have an interest in it and a desire to play it so you have already placed value on it. Exactly, you're making my point above. Now this is simply attacking ad hominem. You're not actually making an argument here. If we're going to talk name calling you're the one starting it here and now. You can't guarantee enjoyment but your argument is simply a prop justification of morality for an illegal act. I mostly buy new but there's actually no argument here because everything I do, buying used games is perfectly legal. Is you argument simply that the morality of your actions is purely based on the profit of a game developer? Now you're attacking a straw man. We're talking cognitive dissonance here not the unknowable future. What people think they will do and what they actually do are two different things.

http://www.destructoid.com/xbox-720-logo-spotted-in-trailer-for-real-steel-213057.phtml This is probably just "this movie is in the future".

You're still acting in a responsive way or due to a momentary feeling.

Well, actually, people mostly take up smoking impulsively. Whether it be from peer pressure or stress or whatever. People don't usually schedule at time to start smoking.

People are creatures of impulse. We make snap decisions and deviate from our plans all the time. Additionally we can't stay on diets or quit smoking. It's called cognitive dissonance.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037838637&postcount=479

I'm going to go back to justification on this one. I don't think saying you might not enjoy it legitimizes illegally downloading a game and I agree with TN by saying that it's a fallacy for anyone to claim they know for sure they wouldn't buy a game. What people think they will do and what people actually do are not the same thing. Fully agree, bring it back. I don't see any name calling or personal attacks.

You wouldn't have felt that you'd have felt insulted if you didn't do what I alleged that you did do which you discount by saying my conclusion has no basis. On time and money: It's value is different for everyone. I find that for me, the value of a videogame is usually around $20 so that's usually what I spend on them. That value isn't contingent upon my enjoyment though. I'm purchasing the opportunity for enjoyment. You're trying to guarantee enjoyment though an illegal download.

@dean, I said you'd have an interest in not enjoying the games that you demo. As far as the cost issue of releasing a demo, I'm not sure I believe that as I'm not sure I believe it when they tell us the PC version got delayed for QA reasons. Also to my point is them releasing demos only long after the game has been released. They hope that perhaps a few stragglers will download the demo and then buy the game but they don't want to lose any day one sales on people who demo the game and don't like it. The PR spin is they want to get the game out and then work on the demo but again, I'm not sure I believe them. I've also never questioned how many games you people in here have bought. I'm sure you guys probably buy tons of games and that's good, support the industry!

'twas a cheap shot and was mostly in jest there. Cheerfully withdrawn on that point. Sorry, this is getting more emotional than I intended it to.

I'm glad you asked. In honesty I was tempted to buy an R4 device. I thought if I had one I could play some games I didn't actually want to buy. Then I thought about this a little longer and asked myself, why would I waste my time playing games that weren't even worth my money? That resolved my question then and there. Do I still occasionally buy a game that I don't love? Yeah, sometimes. I can't remember ever really not enjoying a game that I bought to the point of feeling cheated or ripped off though. Maybe Uncharted 2. Except that's the opposite of what you stated you do. You claim that you pirate a game so that you don't spend any money on it until you know you'll enjoy it. You'll notice also that I didn't specifically call you out as a fool and I did that on purpose. I don't pretend to know what you personally do but I stand by my statement that someone who spends his time on things that aren't worth his money is a fool and if by your own admission you accept that you do this then you're the one feeling convicted. I'm not trying to disrespect your opinions I'm only trying to point out where I disagree. I don't know a better word to use than foolish though.